What is wrong with Dirk's defense?

[Objective J]

Everytime I watch Dirk move around the court on defense, I wish I could take him aside and show him what he is doing wrong. He seems to walk around in an upright position instead of sliding laterally and backward. He needs to start practicing side stepping exercises. My observation of Dirk may be unfair because of his ankle problems, but I am just stating what I see. You can't play good defense standing fully erect.

[DwD]

My...how original to call him "Irk" - must have taken you a long time to come up with that!

[Objective J]

Sorry, just trying to generate interest. Outside of the semantics, I think my point is valid.

[DwD]

I am sorry to have come off that sarcastic, but my patience has just worn thin after the allas/irk attacks on every single messageboard I have been on, regardless of the facts.

[Murphy3]

I'm not sure why anyone should attack players on the Mavs defense right at the moment..especially when they're playing pretty well.

Dirk had a pretty good night of staying between Duncan and the basket when they were matched up...Also provided solid pressure. The Mavs were most effective on Duncan last night when you had Dirk on him with Bradley either providing help side defense or immediately doubling.

[Objective J]

My point is really not meant to slam Dirk or the Dallas defense. I definitely see the effort put forth by the team, but Dirk has some fundamental problems with the way he plays defense. I consider myself to be a pretty good low post defender for my size. Several things bother me about Dirk's defense.

1) He let's people back him down. Look at Najera vs. Dirk. Dirk will let the defender gain ground toward the basket with little resistance. He need to think like a big man. The paint belongs to him.
2) He doesn't bump the opposing players as they cross the lane. Again watch Najera.
3) He doesn't fight hard enough for position when someone is trying to get in the paint. My rule on defense is nobody without the ball is allowed in the paint unless they are on their way out ... being pushed out by me.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally posted by: Objective J
Everytime I watch Dirk move around the court on defense, I wish I could take him aside and show him what he is doing wrong. He seems to walk around in an upright position instead of sliding laterally and backward. He needs to start practicing side stepping exercises. My observation of Dirk may be unfair because of his ankle problems, but I am just stating what I see. You can't play good defense standing fully erect.

Dude, WTF? Your point about Dirk not always getting low enough on perimeter D is a valid one, but did you not watch the solid defensive job he did last night against Duncan in the post? Enough with the Irk BS.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]

[Objective J]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
I'm not sure why anyone should attack players on the Mavs defense right at the moment..especially when they're playing pretty well.

Dirk had a pretty good night of staying between Duncan and the basket when they were matched up...Also provided solid pressure. The Mavs were most effective on Duncan last night when you had Dirk on him with Bradley either providing help side defense or immediately doubling.

My point is that Dirk is 7' tall and he is bigger than Najera. It is Najera who has the attitude that I just mentioned. If Dirk could provide more resistance to the back down, the team wouldn't have to be scrambling on defense like chicken with their heads cut off. If Dirk had the want he could become the low post defending presence everybody is trying to find in some player outside of the Mavericks organization.

[Murphy3]

A big difference between Najera and Dirk and what they can and cannot do.
Najera can afford to be super aggressive defensively at times when dirk cannot.

Why?

1. The Mavs aren't asking Najera to play many minutes.
2. The Mavs aren't asking Najera to contribute on the offensive side except for the occasional o-board.
3. Najera gets in foul trouble, oh well
4. Dirk gets in foul trouble, oh sh!t


With all of that being said, Dirk is still a better low post defender than Najera. Sure, maybe it's mostly due to the fact that Dirk's simply taller and can contest more shots. But, this is basketball. Height counts.

Sure, sometimes Dirk needs to be more aggressive defensively. However, sometimes he cannot aford to.

Just a question. Who does KG guard when the Wolves play the Mavs? Usually not Dirk. Who does Duncan guard most of the time when the Spurs play the Mavs? Usually not Dirk

What's my point? In spite of being a lesser defender, Dirk is still called upon to guard the dominant PF more often than either KG or TD when the teams match up.

With all this being said, yes, Dirk does need to continue to improve defensively. But, he has. Some just don't notice that he's moved from being a bad low post defender to being an average low post defender.

Some are still stuck back in the past along with the National Media. Objective, take a step into the present. You might actually enjoy it.

[Objective J]

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Dude, WTF? Your point about Dirk not always getting low enough on perimeter D is a valid one, but did you not watch the solid defensive job he did last night against Duncan in the post? Enough with the Irk BS.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]

He did better last night. But, it isn't natural to him. You can see it when he's playing. He doesn't have the "paint belongs to me" mentality.

[jacktruth]

Dirk is often out of place on defense. Last night, unless his man had the ball, he kindov drifted of into a half-way threat of a double team on the ball. Meanwhile, his man is wide open. Rasho got at least two scores off of that. I really wasn't sure what he was doing. It was as if he didn't know whether he should double team or stick to his man, so he kindov did neither.

His on-the-ball defense is not really a problem. It could use improvement for sure, but it is his off-the-ball defense that needs work.

[grndmstr_c]

Dirk did a solid job against one of the two best low post players in the game today. Perhaps the day after such a performance a little praise might be a more reasonable response than criticism, and tired and inaccurate slurs.

[Murphy3]

One of the plays definitely was not dirk's responsibility. Dirk was matched up with TD but was giving him space for the open 17 footer. Rasho cut to the bucket past dirk and received the pass for the easy slam. However, I think Dirk was currently a bit more worried about TD and rightfully so.

On another occasion, it appeared that half the team was playing zone while the other half was in man-to-man. Perhaps that one was Dirk's responsibility. It very possibly was.

[Objective J]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
A big difference between Najera and Dirk and what they can and cannot do.
Najera can afford to be super aggressive defensively at times when dirk cannot.

Why?

1. The Mavs aren't asking Najera to play many minutes.
2. The Mavs aren't asking Najera to contribute on the offensive side except for the occasional o-board.
3. Najera gets in foul trouble, oh well
4. Dirk gets in foul trouble, oh sh!t


With all of that being said, Dirk is still a better low post defender than Najera. Sure, maybe it's mostly due to the fact that Dirk's simply taller and can contest more shots. But, this is basketball. Height counts.

Sure, sometimes Dirk needs to be more aggressive defensively. However, sometimes he cannot aford to.

Just a question. Who does KG guard when the Wolves play the Mavs? Usually not Dirk. Who does Duncan guard most of the time when the Spurs play the Mavs? Usually not Dirk

What's my point? In spite of being a lesser defender, Dirk is still called upon to guard the dominant PF more often than either KG or TD when the teams match up.

I see your point about not guarding the premier offensive player. But, I think when push comes to shove at the end of the game, he needs to be able to be put on the other teams best player and do a decent job without an immediate double team. KG and Duncan can both do that. The Mavs need this from him. I personally am not too worried about Dirk getting into foul trouble when we have Walker , Najera, and Jamison. With the kind of depth we have, every player should be giving everything they have on both sides of the ball.

[Murphy3]

KG and Duncan don't do a good job on Dirk man-to-man. Dirk doesn't do a great job on TD or KG without help.

Perhaps you're looking for Dirk to become a dominant defender in one giant leap instead of progressively getting better every year. I'm sorry, but that is not going to happen. Dirk will need assistance on KG and TD just like everyone else in the league needs help.

KG and TD will need significant help with Dirk just like everyone else in the league needs help. Actually, you won't see KG or TD matched up on Dirk much. Why? Minnesota and San Antonio don't want to tire either out too much on defense. And frankly, they simply cannot do a good job on Dirk. It's more effective for either team to match up a defensive specialist against him and throw double teams at him whenever he's in the paint.

Does that sound familiar? Well, it sounds similar to the Mavs using their defensive specialist to double up on TD last night (bradley)

[Objective J]

Maybe I'm not cutting him enough slack. I acknowledge that he has improved just as Nash has improved. But, he still makes mistakes that piss me off. Things that should come naturally defensively don't. A play from last night just sticks in my head. Duncan was in the low post, and Dirk was the defender. Duncan took three dribbles and got himself all the way to the basket by doing nothing but backing down. You can't let yourself get backed down like that. I don't care who the other player was. Fortson wouldn't allow that and neither would Najera.

[Murphy3]

When you guard Duncan for as long as Dirk did last night, there will be instances like that.

And no, it wouldn't have happened with Fortson. Duncan would have faced up and taken a couple of dribbles right around the two toed sloth that is Danny Fortson UNLESS Fortson is getting help from a double team.

With Najera, Duncan would have simply shot over him like he has done so many times in the past UNLESS Najera is getting help from another defender.

Overall, the Mavs did a pretty good job on Duncan in the half court set. Three or so of his buckets came in transition. Another couple came off of offensive rebounds. For the most part, Duncan was forced to get rid of the ball in the half court set. Yes, he still got his numbers, but it really wasn't too much of an issue with the half court defense. Duncan found some other ways to score other than just on the low block.

[Murphy3]

If you want to attack the Mavs defense after last night's game, at least attack the area in which they really struggled. Attack their transition defense. It was horrible at times. The Mavs were getting beat at their own game throughout much of the first half.

In the second half, I have absolutely no major concerns with anything that I saw defensively. Sure, there were a couple of lapses, but it's going to happen.

[Objective J]

Murph,

Perfect my timing is bad considering the fact that we beat the Spurs last night, and Dirk did a decent job on Duncan. Additionally, Dirk is not the only culprit on the Mavs. But, this has been an ongoing thing with the Mavs. Thinking back, I do recall this last game that the Mavs did fight Duncan everytime he tried to flash across the lane. This was a good thing. It is hard to explain what I want from the Mavs defensively, but it just isn't there yet. All you have to do is look at how the San Antonio defenders get into the offensive players. They keep on hand on the player and get low to the ground. The Mavs kind of tap dance around. It is impossible to describe every instance where the Mavs don't get it defensively. They have improved, but it just blows my mind how a professional player can't figure out something as simple as playing position defense.

[Murphy3]

Obviously, improvements need to be made. And, improvements are being made. The team is out-rebounding their opponents through 12 games. Isn't that a little hard to imagine considering how poor the Mavs were on the glass last year?

Strangely enough, it takes a team with a million new faces time to gel on defensively. Knowing where teammates are going to be, and what type of help you should expect is not something that just occurs on the offensive side of the ball.

If Bradley gets 20+ minutes on a relatively consistent basis, I will go ahead and say that the Mavs will be a better than average team defensively with regards to:

1. rebounding
2. opponents FG%

No, they will never be a great team in points allowed per game. But, should the be expected to? How could they be a great team in points allowed per game when they force more of an up tempo style? It's virtually impossible. Plus, if you force more of an up tempo style, you're more apt to give up a few easy buckets.

Hey, it's easier when you're playing a slow 'em down style where you have time to set up your defense every time down the court. The Mavs don't play that style of basketball.

[LRB]

Who what an orignal topic, 4 years ago that is.

Dirk certainly isn't ready to be named to 1st team allnba defensive team this year, but I don't see how anyone knowledgable about basketball could say with all honesty that he has no D in his game. As many others have mentioned he played some pretty good D last night.


Of course this may very well be a style over substance argument. ie it doesn't matter if what you do is effective in defending your basket or not, all that matters is how you look doing it. Someone could score on you everytime but as long as you look like your playing great D is all that matters. Where as another player might shut down a top offensive option and be labled a lame defender because it didn't look like he was playing great D.

So good looking stance and your man dunks on you, you're still a great defender.

Terrible looking stance and you block you man's shot, you suck at defense.

I'm sick of people making basketball criticisms that have less to do with play and more to do with runway modeling. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[jacktruth]

Originally posted by: Murphy3


On another occasion, it appeared that half the team was playing zone while the other half was in man-to-man. Perhaps that one was Dirk's responsibility. It very possibly was.

I guess that is part of the problem of analyzing it from outside Nellie's brain. It's hard to know what they are supposed to be doing. I think this is the play I was talking about and may explain several other defensive blunders through the night.

[Murphy3]

Of course, three of the players could have been playing zone with the other two playing man to man..and hell, that might have been by design
who the hell knows?

[Objective J]

Murph and LRB, I respect both of your opinions, and judging by the number of postings you have made, you have probably seen a thread or two on this subject. But, being relatively new to this board, I noticed a lack of discussion on fundamentals. I have played basketball regularly for 13 years (most of the time in the post). And, on any given night, I am taking on guys that out weigh me and are taller than me. But, by fighting them for space, keeping them away from the basket. Staying on my toes, getting low to the ground, and gently bumping their legs on hook shots, I am pretty effective without fouling. These things are simple, and I do them without thinking. Yet, the Mavs who are professionals can't do the same.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Objective J
Murph and LRB, I respect both of your opinions, and judging by the number of postings you have made, you have probably seen a thread or two on this subject. But, being relatively new to this board, I noticed a lack of discussion on fundamentals. I have played basketball regularly for 13 years (most of the time in the post). And, on any given night, I am taking on guys that out weigh me and are taller than me. But, by fighting them for space, keeping them away from the basket. Staying on my toes, getting low to the ground, and gently bumping their legs on hook shots, I am pretty effective without fouling. These things are simple, and I do them without thinking. Yet, the Mavs who are professionals can't do the same.

Mark 2:27

And he said unto them, The asabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.

Fundamentals developed to help get results when playing defense. If you can do something unorthodox and you do a good job of keeping your opponent from scoring, then are you saying that that is bad defense? If you use good fundamentals and you don't have much affect on your opponents ability to score then it that great defense?

Fundamentals are great. Heck they might help you play better defense, but using fundamentals is not the same as playing good defense. They're there to help players not to be the alter upon which to worship.

So why did

I

not mention the fundamentals, because Dirk is producing good defense

results

. Could he get better? Yes, I think he could. Could better fundamentals help him get better? Probably. But does not having good fundamentals mean that he or anyother player is not playing decent D? Not necessarily. Depends on the results.

[bogey]

geez...another ultra intelligent Irk reference?

thanks BJ-ective J.

[Objective J]

I cannot believe how much heat I am catching for picking on Dirk's defense. I thought I would have much agreement. My point of the thread was not to defend the initial subject of his lack of defensive ability. I thought we might be able to discuss how he can improve it. Dirk could stand to improve his defense. All I am getting from everybody is how stupid I am for pointing out that he is not a good defender. If you guys can't get past the fact that I am attacking Dirk, it is impossible to discuss how he can improve his D. I apologize for leaving the "D" off Dirk. That is not the point of the thread.

[LRB]

Obviously you hit a sore spot. Lot's of us are tired of hearing the National idiots like Barkley and such use sayings like this. When someone comes into the league with lots of defensive defishencies as Dirk did and then makes major improvements it becomes very tiresome to fans of that player when people still refuse to aknowlege that he has improved greatley and does have some D in his game. Be careful which buttons you push because most are hardwired to a specific response. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Fah Q]

Originally posted by: Objective J
I cannot believe how much heat I am catching for picking on Dirk's defense. I thought I would have much agreement. My point of the thread was not to defend the initial subject of his lack of defensive ability. I thought we might be able to discuss how he can improve it. Dirk could stand to improve his defense. All I am getting from everybody is how stupid I am for pointing out that he is not a good defender. If you guys can't get past the fact that I am attacking Dirk, it is impossible to discuss how he can improve his D. I apologize for leaving the "D" off Dirk. That is not the point of the thread.

I have a suggestion.

Why don't you just put the D back in Dirks name considering he actually is an average defender now, though he has plenty of room for improvement . If you do that I imagine many people will take your thread more seriously.

I agree Dirk isn't the greatest defender but you have to realize that many players in this league aren't as good as he is.

[Objective J]

Good advise. I'll make sure not to cross any of the fan favorites anymore. BTW, Nash did a great job of bringing back his tear drop in the lane, and he cut out the dreaded jump pass under the basket that had become a habit early in the season. I hope the second part didn't sound too critical. I can't afford to make a lot of enemies on the board so early on. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Objective J]

Originally posted by: Fah Q

I have a suggestion.

Why don't you just put the D back in Dirks name considering he actually is an average defender now, though he has plenty of room for improvement . If you do that I imagine many people will take your thread more seriously.

I agree Dirk isn't the greatest defender but you have to realize that many players in this league aren't as good as he is.

Believe me with 20/20 hindsight. Removing the letter D from his name was the worst mistake of my thread posting life.

[Fah Q]

Originally posted by: Objective J
Good advise. I'll make sure not to cross any of the fan favorites anymore. BTW, Nash did a great job of bringing back his tear drop in the lane, and he cut out the dreaded jump pass under the basket that had become a habit early in the season. I hope the second part didn't sound too critical. I can't afford to make a lot of enemies on the board so early on. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Your not going to make enemies if you have something critical to say about a player, but if you use stupid(i'm not trying to be an @sshole) references that aren't legitimate people are going to tell you what they think about your reference.

By the way, I agree with you about Nash making some boneheaded jump passes. I'm just glad he is cutting those down.

[Murphy3]

It's fine to cross a fan favorite. That is not the point.
The point is that you're using a nickname that simply does not apply anymore in 'irk'. It implies that he has no 'D' as I'm sure that you're well aware. To imply that Dirk does not play any 'D' is simply a horribly incorrect statement.

Now, if you wanted to discuss what he could do to improve his defensive game, that would be a completely different story. However, when the first thing you do is to imply that he plays no 'D' by using the name 'irk', you've already invalidated your statement.

The statement of calling Dirk 'irk' is just about as valid as those that were calling for Fin to benched because he doesn't have it anymore. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't cut it.

[Fah Q]

Originally posted by: Objective J

Believe me with 20/20 hindsight. Removing the letter D from his name was the worst mistake of my thread posting life.

You can edit that and put the D back in if you want.

[Fah Q]

Good job Objective. Some might disagree with you still, but you won't get bashed like you did earlier.

[grndmstr_c]

Thank you, Objective J.

[Murphy3]

Oh, it's obvious that Dirk has some areas of his game that need improvement on that side of the ball. But, can this thread be salvaged enough to actually discuss them?

[Objective J]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Oh, it's obvious that Dirk has some areas of his game that need improvement on that side of the ball. But, can this thread be salvaged enough to actually discuss them?

I am not sure if the thread can be salvaged. I am sure, however, that I will check my vehicle for car bombs before I turn the ignition. From now on, he is DDDirk.

[Murphy3]

J, know one has a problem with you criticizing a player. However, whenever you make a statement that is blatantly incorrect and horribly disrespectful, you can bet that people will call you on it. Stop trying to be the victim.

[Objective J]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Objective, take a step into the present. You might actually enjoy it.

Murph,

I am the biggest Mavs fan around, and I don't let the media bother me. I don't think leaving the D off of someone's name is a big deal. I am a huge fan of Dirk, and I think he is arguably the 6th best player in the league. I won't play the victim if people would keep personal insults out of their posts.

I still stand behind my conviction that Dirk is not a good defender. He is average at best. A good defender would be Shaq. An excellent defender would be Kevin Garnett. If you want to say that he gets a bad rap in the media, that is fair. I don't think Chris Webber is any better at defense than Dirk, but people don't pile drive Webber on a regular basis like they do Dirk. I think every statement I have made is accurate and well thought out. I stated point by point the problems I have with his defense. I didn't hear anyone come back with anything objective to refute my points.