Fortson

[Max Power]

Bad Rap
When it comes to Danny Fortson, don't believe everything you hear
BY JOHN GONZALEZ
john.gonzalez@dallasobserver.com

In sports, particularly among the media, rumors are like venereal diseases: There are a lot of them out there, and they're quickly and easily passed around. Who's a nice guy, who's a dick, who's not talking to his coach, who slept with this actress or that celebrity--there's never a shortage of dirt or opinion. Most of it can't be printed, or even partially verified, but the gossip does make hanging around practices and news conferences more interesting. (Hey, we've gotta have something to occupy us during the downtime.)
That's why it didn't surprise me when, a few months ago, Antawn Jamison and Danny Fortson landed in Dallas with more baggage than you or I generally carry. They came complete with hardened reputations, too. Or, translated for the hip, reps. In Jamison's case, his time in Golden State served him well, establishing the young forward as everybody's buddy, a walking smile with low-post moves.

The rap on Fortson was something altogether different. Before being traded to the Mavs, he played for the Warriors, the Celtics and the Nuggets. At each stop, he was labeled the bruiser, not a skilled player so much as a hard worker, unrepentant in the paint and just as likely to grab rebounds as throw elbows. He was the badass or, depending on whom you asked, just a plain old ass. By the time he reached Golden State, he was branded a malcontent and written off as more trouble than he was worth. That sentiment was accentuated last year when he appeared in only 17 games. Sure, he missed 14 games for injuries and personal reasons, but he was also suspended four times and listed as DNP-CD on 43 occasions. That's Did Not Play-Coach's Decision for those of you who don't speak stat-sheet so well. Naturally, the immediate assumption was that he was a pain, because big guys who can rebound don't get stuck on the bench unless they're pricks, right? It didn't matter that he'd played for three coaches in three years there, or that the Warriors were perennial losers with no organizational direction. It couldn't have been that the team and its philosophy were to blame for the rift; it had to be the player's fault because that's where the culpability usually falls. It's easier and cleaner that way. Ask Nick Van Exel.

Before we go any further, you need to understand something. Pro athletes tend to be exactly what you'd expect--pampered prisses with heads as fat as their wallets. So what I'd heard about Fortson I almost accepted without question.

What? He's a jerkoff? How unusual...

I would have left him alone, except that I needed to talk to him for a piece I was writing on Jamison. A few weeks after he'd been traded to the Mavs, I stopped Fortson after practice, expecting him to be gruff and laconic. He turned out to be anything but. We talked for a good while about basketball and life. He laughed a lot and looked me in the eye. He answered all my questions and never tried to hurry things along. When I dropped my tape recorder, he bent his 6-foot-8, 265-pound body to meet the hardwood and picked up the pieces, reassembling my gadget and handing it back to me with a smile before I knew what had happened. As I walked away, stunned, one of the beat reporters stopped me.

"What'd you think of him?" the scribe asked, nodding toward Fortson. I told him Fortson was nice and overly accommodating--the complete opposite of what I'd expected or heard. "Yeah, that was my take, too," the writer said. "Who woulda guessed?"

Since that day, I've interviewed Fortson a number of times, always waiting for him to regress and grumble about not playing on the regular or lash out as reflex. Hasn't happened. He's remained reserved and thankful, happy to be on a winner and eager to help out whenever and however head coach Don Nelson needs him. Which, depending on the night and the opponent, varies. His game-by-game minutes read like they were scripted by a schizophrenic--nine minutes here, 33 minutes there. The rhyme or reason is lost on me. On Fortson, too, I think, even though he won't bash anyone for it.

"Hey, this is still the best place for me," Fortson says with all sincerity. He is averaging a little more than three points and four and a half boards over 12 minutes per game. "You know, 'Tawn had said that he felt like he was in jail in Golden State. If he was in jail, I was under the jail. It was hard for me. Real hard. It was frustrating.

"You know, for sure I want to play all the time. Any player you talk to will tell you that. It's hard, yeah, when you play four minutes or 10 minutes one game and 20-something the next. It's hard to get in a rhythm when you haven't broken a sweat. But coming here, I was prepared for that. We have a lot of good players on this team, and there's only so many minutes to go around. Look, it's like this, I can be here and play when they need me for a good organization and a legendary coach...or I could be back in Golden State."

As a basic rule, I hate most people. I don't hate Fortson. In fact, I'm rooting for him, and not simply because he's been straight with me, or because I think he's misunderstood. That's part of the reason he's endearing, but the rest of it stems from watching him play and thinking his style is exactly what this team has always needed--a brute to occupy the lane and tax opponents with hard fouls. He caught a lot of flak for the Zarko Cabarkapa incident--for which he was nationally vilified and suspended for three games by the league after a hard foul resulted in a broken wrist for the Phoenix player--but I didn't see it as dirty. In fact, I thought it was great--the kind of I'm-tougher-than-you action the Mavs have always avoided. (Fortson says he didn't intend to hurt Cabarkapa, but he doesn't plan on apologizing either. Good for him.)

"Danny gives you effort every time out," Nellie says. "It's hard to complain about his effort."

Read into that what you will--that Nelson sees Fortson as an enforcer to be used only in specific situations or that the head coach really is pleased with his bit player. All I know is that Fortson has handled himself well, and, for any number of reasons, I'd like to see him get more court time.

"It's only Christmas; it's early," Fortson says. "Maybe I'll get more time as the season goes on. If he only plays me five minutes a game, then I'll play as hard as I can for five minutes."

dallasobserver.com | originally published: December 18, 2003

[kg_veteran]

Great read.

I don't think anybody can really criticize what Fortson has brought to the table so far. He gives you everything he has, and I believe he can serve a nice role on this team.

[Max Power]

A rebound every 2.5 minutes is incredible. Plus he is shooting a career high 56% from the field.

[Maringa]

Bringing back an old thread....Has anyone been pleasantly surprised by Danny Fortson's recent play? Over the last few games, he has not been an offensive liability. He has been a little more agressive under the offensive basket for putbacks. I also notice that Steven Nash and some of the other players don't hesitate to pass to him anymore so that he can put it in. He also handles the ball a little better than I thought he could. I believe in the Portland or Denver game, he took the ball from the top of the key and drove it through traffice to score a layup. He continues to be agressive in rebounding, and frustrating the other teams players (Nene, Davis, etc.). The only unfortunate thing is that he is still a defensive liability. He can't stop a shot or a drive...he is only effective if the other team is shooting poorly and he rebounds the ball. I think the 13-18 minutes that Nellie/Donnie are giving him are just right!

[LRB]

Danny is a good roleplayer to have on this team. He is often a defensive liability, but not always. There are certain players that Danny matches up well with and is the best mav to guard them one on one. He's not nor will he ever be a great help defender at the 5 that can shut down the lane. With Fortson in our perimeter guys don't have any help in the middle if they get beat. Esentially Danny is a PF who plays C because we're so short of talent there and so long at PF. But he's as great guy to have on the end of your bench to use.

[kg_veteran]

Danny combines with Shawn to give the Mavs a nice pair of roleplayers at the center spot.

Use them for 30 minutes a game, and you'll be happy with the results.

[MavsFanFinley]

I don't think anyone can complain with what he's brought to the team so far. He's played hard, and from all accounts has gotten along with everyone.

He's certainly been winning me over. But, I still think of everything that came out of Oakland and sometimes wait for something to happen.

[Jamisonite]

I love what hes done for us. If someone complains they are misinformed

[grndmstr_c]

I'll defend him a little bit for his help defense. Early in the year he seemed to pretty much always be late sliding over to position himself between the offensive player and the backcourt, but I've seen him more consistently get position and either alter a shot or draw a charge just by holding his arms up and letting his girth take care of the rest. He's not Shawn, but he has definitely improved enough, especially mentally, for me to feel comfortable having him out there and appreciate the preparation he must be doing to improve that part of his game.

[EricaLubarsky]

He is one of those guys that would be an Erick Dampier if he were 6" taller- perhaps even better. He took a while to learn Nellie's system but now he's fitting in. He may not be tall but he is smart; he may be the only one on the team that really blocks out for rebounds and when he does he's immovable. The last couple of games he's been getting double digit points as well. I don't mind playing him at all when he isnt getting taken advantage of. Go Fort!

The only thing I have beef with is his cornrows and headband- he should shave his head or go afro but the little cornrows with the headband are terribly ugly.

[dude1394]

And I think he has hands of steel. NOTHING gets away from him once he gets his mitts on it.

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
He is one of those guys that would be an Erick Dampier if he were 6" taller- perhaps even better. He took a while to learn Nellie's system but now he's fitting in. He may not be tall but he is smart; he may be the only one on the team that really blocks out for rebounds and when he does he's immovable. The last couple of games he's been getting double digit points as well. I don't mind playing him at all when he isnt getting taken advantage of. Go Fort!

The only thing I have beef with is his cornrows and headband- he should shave his head or go afro but the little cornrows with the headband are terribly ugly.

What...you don't like the SAMURAI LOOK? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[LRB]

What...you don't like the SAMURAI LOOK?

It's more like the WNBA look.[img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[madape]

Fortson has a number of strikes against him. He does not have the height, quickness, leaping ablity, athleticism, mobility, or shooting range to be a regular rotation player for us. What he does have is a big, active body that allows him to get a ton of rebounds. (The fact that he focuses all his energy on rebounding at the expense of everything other aspect of the game probably helps his rebound numbers, too).

However, his effort on the glass doesn't translate into good defensive play. He is too slow and too short to guard anyone one-on-one. And whether it be because of poor court vision, a lack of understanding of the zone, or just plain laziness, he hasn't provided anything that looks like help-side defense this year.

He can be a guy to throw in the game when it looks like the other team is trying to intimidate us physically. I've seen his thuggish tactics make an impact at times. But in my opinion, we have become a good enough rebounding team that we don't need to take on all of Fortson's negatives in the name of better rebounding play. The two or three extra rebounds he would give us over Bradley, Jamison, or whoever's minutes he takes away, don't make up for all the things he does poorly when he's on the floor.

In my opinion, Fortson is a situational player who should probably receive just as many DNP-CDs as he should games in which he plays 10+ minutes.

In the long run, he will be replaced by someone more capable of playing center for us. When that happens, he'll be buried on the bench behind Dirk, Walker, Jamison, Bradley, and the yet unnamed five.

Forton's time on the active roster is ticking, ticking, ticking.

[LRB]

If Fortson wants to stay long term with the Mavs here's what he needs to do.

1. Drop some weight. He's list at 265 but I don't believe that. IMO he needs to target 250 to 255 max.

2. Get toned and lower body fat. In addition to dropping weight, Fortson needs to increase his muscle ratio to fat ratio. I think he can get stronger and definitely faster by losing weight but increasing muscle.

3. This plays on the 1st 2, increase vertical. Fortson is never going to be a high flyer but there is no reason that he can't add several inches to his vertical with work over the summer combined with wight loss.

4. Increase his shooting range and accuracy. He doesn't have to become great or even good. Semi decent will suffice. This will takes tons of work.

There are probably other things that Fortson needs work on, but these 4 will bring the biggest bang for the buck IMO. Most of this will need to take place in the off season and will require Danny to work like he's never worked before in the offseason. It will be tough, but he can do it if he wants it bad enough.

If Danny accomplishes these 4 things by training camp he'll be great shape to find a long term fit here in Dallas.

[kg_veteran]

But in my opinion, we have become a good enough rebounding team that we don't need to take on all of Fortson's negatives in the name of better rebounding play. The two or three extra rebounds he would give us over Bradley, Jamison, or whoever's minutes he takes away, don't make up for all the things he does poorly when he's on the floor.

I'm gonna have to disagree here. I think that there have been a number of nights where, without Fortson, the Mavericks would have been clobbered on the boards.

There are definitely nights when Fortson won't match up well with the other team; those nights, I have no problem with it if he doesn't get on the court much. At the same time, though, Fortson almost always has a positive impact on the game when he enters. He grabs boards in bunches, he gets open under the basket, and he finishes or gets to the line, where he hits his FTs.

He's a limited player, and if you play him more than about 15 mpg, those limitations really start to manifest themselves. In a couple of 7-8 minute stretches per game, though, he can be a very effective guy to throw out there.

[LRB]

He's a limited player, and if you play him more than about 15 mpg, those limitations really start to manifest themselves. In a couple of 7-8 minute stretches per game, though, he can be a very effective guy to throw out there.

KG I totally agree with you. That's why I gave my keys for Fortson's longterm success here. He needs to expand his limits so that we can both play him more minutes and against more teams while still having him be effective for us. I don't think we'll ever play him heavy minutes and there will always be a few teams where he just won't matchup well. But if he could expand his limits some, he would be a much more valuable asset to us than the one he is now.

[grndmstr_c]

To me, one of the most important things is who he has matched up well against. Two teams spring to mind: the Spurs, and the Lakers.

[kg_veteran]

LRB, if the Mavs do what I hope in the offseason and acquire Tag, there may be more and more nights next year when Danny never gets off the bench. This season, though, I think he has a valuable role to fill.

[madape]

Over 15 minutes, Fortson is averaging 4.9 rebounds.

In that same time frame, Jamison is averaging 3.2 this year.
Shawn Bradley has averaged 4.1 per 15 minutes over the last four years.

So, if Fortson takes Jamison's minutes, the Mavericks should average a net increase of 1.7 rebounds a game.
If he takes Shawn Bradley's minutes, the net increase is only 0.8... as it would if he were to get minutes over Greg Oestertag, who is also averaging 4.1 rebounds per 15 minutes this year.

Jamison and Bradley are going to be the guys who's minutes would decrease if Fortson is to get his 15 minutes a game this year. Likewise, next year if Fortson is going to get any time, it will come at the expense of whatever center we happen to aquire.

As the statistics prove, playing Fortson 15 minutes a game will net you on average 1.25 extra boards. If those minutes come at the expense of a TRUE five like Shawn or Ostertag, the increase is only a fraction of one rebound.

Can you really sit there and tell me that four-fifths of a rebound is so important, that you can ignore all the negative things Fortson brings to the game?

[kg_veteran]

Over 15 minutes, Fortson is averaging 4.9 rebounds.

Actually, it's 4.9 rebounds in 11.6 minutes per game. If he played 15 per night, he'd get 6.3 rebounds per game.

In that same time frame, Jamison is averaging 3.2 this year.
Shawn Bradley has averaged 4.1 per 15 minutes over the last four years.

Clever way of phrasing it, since Shawn's only averaging 3.0 rpg per 15 minutes played this year. Still, I'll accept your numbers.

So, if Fortson takes Jamison's minutes, the Mavericks should average a net increase of 1.7 rebounds a game.

Actually, make that 3.1. That's pretty damn good to let the guy play 15 minutes.

If he takes Shawn Bradley's minutes, the net increase is only 0.8... as it would if he were to get minutes over Greg Oestertag, who is also averaging 4.1 rebounds per 15 minutes this year.

Again, it'd be 2.1 extra rebounds -- pretty damn good for a 15 minute stretch. Shawn only gets that many boards per game this year.

Jamison and Bradley are going to be the guys who's minutes would decrease if Fortson is to get his 15 minutes a game this year. Likewise, next year if Fortson is going to get any time, it will come at the expense of whatever center we happen to aquire.

The only thing I've advocated is that Shawn and Danny should combine to average 30 minutes per night. I don't care how it's split up, but Danny definitely produces, and his rebounding superiority over anybody else on the team isn't negligible at all -- it's very clear.

Can you really sit there and tell me that four-fifths of a rebound is so important, that you can ignore all the negative things Fortson brings to the game?

I can tell you that putting him in for 10-15 minutes a night and getting an extra 2-3 boards over anybody else we could put in his spot is valuable, yes.

[kg_veteran]

And, as I mentioned above, the guy is also shooting 56% from the floor and hitting his FTs when he goes to the line. You've gotta love that out of a reserve big guy.

[grndmstr_c]

Madape, I certainly wish we played Bradley more, and if we net Tag next year, there will be virtually no reason to play Fort except for fouls and garbage minutes. But you really are selling his contributions short. His defense has improved over the course of the year, he's made good decisions on offense, and has done about as good a job as we could hope for against some difficult to match players, including Eddie Curry, Shaquille O'Neal, and Malik "the Mav killer" Rose. As for his rebounding, don't just look at his boards. Look at how the team does. According to 82games.com Dallas' boards at 33.3% on offense and 71.7% on defense when Danny's on the floor. We can compare that to AJ and Shawn. When AJ's on the floor the team boards at 31% on offense and 69.4% on defense. When Bradley's on the floor the team boards at 28% on offense and 70.4% on defense. Danny's effect on the rebounding battle extends beyond his own statistics.

Edited for statistical error.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
LRB, if the Mavs do what I hope in the offseason and acquire Tag, there may be more and more nights next year when Danny never gets off the bench. This season, though, I think he has a valuable role to fill.

Again I don't disagree here. I feverently hope that we don't screwup and go after someone other than Tag as a FA next summer. And Danny should play much less a role if this happens. However if he improves his limits, then there are many more games where he could be a help, even if it's just a short 5 to 7 mintues total. Probably we won't need Fortson in the vast majority of games next year, but it's great to have your guys 10 through 12 be real quality just incase. And we will still need a thug, and Danny can be our thug.

[MikeB]

LRB

I agree that if Danny Fortson works on the things you listed that he could have a place here.
I think with a better shot and a little more lift he could be something like Corliss Williamson...probably not as offensively skilled but definitely a better rebounder. Plus with a little less Danny he should be somewhat quicker and therefore a possibly better overall defender.

[madape]

Actually, it's 4.9 rebounds in 11.6 minutes per game. If he played 15 per night, he'd get 6.3 rebounds per game.

I need to get a new slide rule! Thanks for the correction.

No one is disputing Forton's abilities to rebound. But I think that putting a true shotblocking center along with Dirk, Walker and/or Jamison will make us an pretty darn good rebounding team. Throw in Josh Howard at the backup 2 and we look like one of the best rebounding teams in the NBA... without Fortson. But with a shotblocker in the lineup instead of Fort, we'd be much better defensively.

I think Fortson has a role on this team this year. Fortson is great in situations in which teams try to intimidate us physically. I think this team is more lacking in THAT area of the game than in rebounding. What would be ideal is if we had someone who could absorb and dish out punishment while still playing good defense and grabbing some boards. We don't have anyone on the roster right now that can really do all those things, so we have to play guys who are great in one area, and poor in another. Bradley plays great defense, grabs some boards, but no one's ever confused him with Bill Leimbier. Fortson doesn't play defense, but he does rebound and doesn't mind leaning his overweight frame on people.

That's not to say that being physical carries equal importance to good defense, though. Defense should be our number one prioriry from our big man, rebounding second. Fortson's ability to "bang" around, should only be of importance when we are getting bullied around consistently on the inside. I can probably count on one hand the games this year in which that has happened. Therefore, Fortson should only play in a handful of games, IMO. If N'Daiye ever gets up to speed, I expect that will occur.

As an aside, wouldn't it be nice to have a certain 7'2" physical, defensive, rebounding center on the roster, who just happens to also be a Dallas native?

[kg_veteran]

Well said, ape. Very well said.

BTW, I've been drooling at the prospect of getting Tag in the offseason, and by all accounts he wants to come here. Can you imagine Tag playing 25 mpg, Bradley playing 15 or so, and Dirk filling in the rest? Combine that with our monstrous forward core and our rock solid backcourt and you've got one hell of a unit.

[dude1394]

I don't think anyone would disagree that a shotblocker would be better than fortson. But I would like to see him and bradley split the time and to be honest I don't care for the matchup junk. Play both of them the 30-40 minutes apiece.

Now I like ostertag, but the question is does he play in the last 10 minutes? If he does, who sits?

[dude1394]

So why don't we just get 'tag now? Especially if UTAH is going to lose him anyway? What's the wait?

I think he goes for more than the exception to be honest.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: dude1394
So why don't we just get 'tag now? Especially if UTAH is going to lose him anyway? What's the wait?

I think he goes for more than the exception to be honest.

Dude if we could swing a decent trade for Tag I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'd rather have us in the driver's seat able to match any offer he was made than possibly be left out in the cold.

[dude1394]

Why wouldn't utah re-sign him? And if not why wouldn't they take a draft pick, daniels, najera, ?? for him.

[Murphy3]

Unfortunately, Fortson has become more valuable because of the Mavs inability to compete on the boards over the past 10+ games. Jamison has been a disappointment of late with his lackluster rebounding. If Jamison can pick up his rebounding to go along with Dirk and Walker, the Mavs would need even less from Fortson. Perhaps he could provide a key elbow to someone's throat whenever necessary.

I do not believe that Fortson should take away from Bradley's minutes. Bradley is simply too valuable defensively. However, as long as Jamison underachieves on the d-glass, Fortson will have a place on the team this season.

[dude1394]

What I would like to see is bradley play hard and then fortson come in to spell him. I'd like to pretty much see some sort of center out there until the last 8-10 minutes. Unless we get a 5 for the end of games.

[sike]

what would it take to pry Tag out of Utah's mormon fingers? I wouldn't take much would it? Fill me in on what you've heard!

[bernardos70]

For someone who was supposedly a cancer, never putting any effort in, never working on anything....... I can't complain about his play. He really is a rebounding machine though, just as advertised. He just has an uncanny ability to get rebounds no matter who's fighting him for it. He gets it done. I remember him getting a rebound over shaq on one of the games against the lakers. He kept tiping it until he got to it, before shaq.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: sike
what would it take to pry Tag out of Utah's mormon fingers? I wouldn't take much would it? Fill me in on what you've heard!

It should take a couple of months. After the season Tags is a FA and could come to Dallas for nothing but a contract and a smile.

[ddh33]

Originally posted by: Drbio

It should take a couple of months. After the season Tags is a FA and could come to Dallas for nothing but a contract and a smile.

I think Greg would love to come to Dallas. But I wonder how much Utah may offer him to stay? Obviously, they'll have the money - maybe too much. They may need to make the minimum...Also, they don't really have a whole lot at center since Borchardt can't seem to stay healthy enough for them to know what they have.

[kg_veteran]

I think it'd cost too much to try and trade for Tag now. Better to wait and lure him home in the summer.

[sike]

so if they wait until off season, is this team still intact(meaning are all the big five still on this roster + Tag?) when Tag comes here?

[bernardos70]

Did you guys see Utah play without Ostertag last night? Not pretty......... I'm not sure Utah would want to let him go, we might get into a bidding war with Utah..... but ultimately, Ostertag will go wherever he wants to go.