With Wallace gone...does that open the door for a trade with Golden State? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

akaarod03 · 02-10-2004, 12:58 AM

Wow...Portland got the better end of that deal...Ratliff AND Abdur-Rahim for Wallace? Amazing. My question is we all know Golden State wants to make a trade...the big rumor was NVE and Dampier to Portland for Wallace. Well that ain't happening after today's news. So does Dallas officially enter the Dampier sweepstakes? I know we can't get NVE...but if you're Dallas...is Dampier and Clifford Robinson worth Antoine Walker? Dampier is going to opt out at the end of this year. Robinson is 37 and has 2 years remaining on his 10 million contract. Walker has 1 year remaining. In terms of talent and salary cap flexibility Golden State accomplishes both of that with the addition of Walker. From Dallas' perspective, we get the big man we want in Dampier and a solid back-up in Robinson. Your thoughts...

TheBaron · 02-10-2004, 01:01 AM

Dampier is the center of the Warrior's team. I bet my first born he wont be traded.

Poindexter Einstein · 02-10-2004, 01:09 AM

I cant see any reason for GS to want to make that trade. If they want cap relief, when Dampier opts out they get it. If they want talent, Dampier + Robinson is probably an even trade-off for Walker, but a C is much harder to find - so seems to me they have no incentive to make a change.

ddh33 · 02-10-2004, 01:09 AM

It would balance the team, but I don't think it's "no-brainer" enough for the Mavs. Besides, in that trade, we lose our second best playmaker.

TheBaron · 02-10-2004, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: ddh33
It would balance the team, but I don't think it's "no-brainer" enough for the Mavs. Besides, in that trade, we lose our second best playmaker.

Its "no brainer" enough for me. I would do it in a second.

grndmstr_c · 02-10-2004, 01:12 AM

If we could get some kind of pledge from Damp that he'd resign with us, I'd have a hard time saying no to that kind of deal, even if it would risk chemistry problems. Cliff sure looks to have a couple more good years left in him as a quality bench contributor at both ends of the court, and Damp matched up with Bradley would give us a top-notch center rotation. Factor in that Dirk would consistently play PF rather than C, and that's one heck of a team. We'd have to know that we could hang on to Damp, though.

Max Power · 02-10-2004, 01:15 AM

If this is the direction the team decides to go then I say we should wait until the offseason and get Dampier in a sign and trade.

I don't want to tear this team apart again - especially for a player who might walk away in the summer.

MavsFanFinley · 02-10-2004, 01:18 AM

GS would be willing to trade Dampier because he's already told them he's walking at the end of the season. But, they're not going to take on a big contract for him.

Why would they want Walker though? They have Troy Murphy and Dunleavy to play the forward positions.

Dirkenstien · 02-10-2004, 01:19 AM

I agree with grndmstr_c in the sense that if we can get a pledge of Dampiers commitment to this team in the offseason we should do this immediately. Why wouldnt Dampier want to play here next season ? ..the players get treated like royalty, hed be on a winning team in quest for a title, he'd be in a great city, and hed be playing a lot of minutes.

Poindexter Einstein · 02-10-2004, 01:21 AM

MAX ... "I don't want to tear this team apart again - especially for a player who might walk away in the summer"

Good point. There is no way to be sure he will stay - though maybe Cuban's checkbook would be the ace in the hole.

Unfortunately, a sign-and-trade might be an even harder deal to work, if you want him here. The contract numbers, vs what you send to GS, would seem to be harder to fit if Dampier has a bigger deal.

MavsFanFinley · 02-10-2004, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Why wouldnt Dampier want to play here next season ? ..the players get treated like royalty, hed be on a winning team in quest for a title, he'd be in a great city, and hed be playing a lot of minutes.

Would he play a lot of minutes though? Under Nelson? I don't see it happening. Sure, there are a lot of perks for playing for Dallas, but guys want to be on the floor not on the bench.

akaarod03 · 02-10-2004, 01:32 AM

MavsFanFinley: Murphy is a PF/C...their lineup would be as follows with the addition of Walker:

Dunleavy
Walker
Murphy
Claxton
Richardson

Not too bad actually...Walker being the oldest player in the starting lineup at the tender age of 27. You add in the fact that they will have a high draft pick this year...this team can get good in a hurry. If Walker doesn't work out...they'll have around 16 million in salary cap space next year to get a primier free agent. Lots of options for Golden State.

Of course, I don't care about GS. I care about Dallas. Looking at their lineup...

Howard Jamison
Nowitski Robinson
Dampier Bradley
Nash Best
Finley Delk/Daniels

Williams and Najera round out the bench. I'll go to war with that roster.

jayC · 02-10-2004, 01:39 AM

Listen Nick can't be traded to the mavs. A team that just traded a player can't trade him back in the same season or year. Dampier yes , Nick the quick no. Really when nick comes into the game its just a one game show on offense. Nick goes to the hole and everyone else watches.

TheBaron · 02-10-2004, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
GS would be willing to trade Dampier because he's already told them he's walking at the end of the season. But, they're not going to take on a big contract for him.

Looks like they are completely unwilling to re-sign anyone. First Arenas, now Dampier.

TheBaron · 02-10-2004, 01:43 AM

Troy Murphy is a developing PF. Don't tell me he is a center. That is rediculous. Golden State has also gone away from Dunleavy so they really arent developing him into their savior.

Poindexter Einstein · 02-10-2004, 01:49 AM

BARON ...If i recall correctly, GS wasnt able to resign Arenas because of cap rules. They didnt have cap room to match the Wash offer (and the rules wouldnt allow them to go over the cap to do so.) So they might have a different approach with Dampier, who would be the one "opting out" by choice. Even if he makes that choice, it does not necessarily mean he is closing the door on GS, it only means that he is looking for a raise.

akaarod03 · 02-10-2004, 01:50 AM

TheBaron: "Troy Murphy is a developing PF. Don't tell me he is a center. That is rediculous. Golden State has also gone away from Dunleavy so they really arent developing him into their savior. "

Ok...plug Foyle into the starting lineup. My point is that Golden State gets talent and salary cap flexibility in Walker. They get rid of a player who will opt out at the end of the year and probably leave them in Dampier and get rid of a guy who is not in their plans but is still making a pretty big salary in Robinson.

Dirkenstien · 02-10-2004, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley

Quote:

Why wouldnt Dampier want to play here next season ? ..the players get treated like royalty, hed be on a winning team in quest for a title, he'd be in a great city, and hed be playing a lot of minutes.

Would he play a lot of minutes though? Under Nelson? I don't see it happening. Sure, there are a lot of perks for playing for Dallas, but guys want to be on the floor not on the bench.

If we got Dampier and he didnt get a lot of minutes at the center position then Nellie should be fired.

MavsFanFinley · 02-10-2004, 02:00 AM

Quote:

If we got Dampier and he didnt get a lot of minutes at the center position then Nellie should be fired.

We've had centers or pf's pretending to be centers. Nelson has always had an excuse not to play them. They're too tall, too short, too fat, too skinny, too foul prone, too injury prone, too this or too that.

It doesn't matter what we want or what we think would work, Nelson will continue to throw whatever offensive players out there that will win the game.

Quote:

MavsFanFinley: Murphy is a PF/C

Murphy is no more suited playing center than Dirk is. And GS knows this. They'd be willing to trade Dampier but they're going to get a center in return, not another forward.

Poindexter Einstein · 02-10-2004, 02:11 AM

MFF ..."they're going to get a center in return"

If they KNOW they are going to lose him anyhow (I am not saying they have determined such a thing, but I imagine they have indeed had discussions and have some feel for what might happen at least) - in such a case, do they hold out and demand center-or-nothing in a trade? Cause if they will lose him (and know it), they wont have him as a C regardless. Mightn't they take the best offer they get? Its not like they will make the playoffs anyhow this year.

grbh · 02-10-2004, 07:46 AM

Has Dampier actually said he is opting out after this season? I don't know one way or the other.

If he has said that he is pretty follish. I don't think he is going to get more money than he is making now. A longer contract yes, but not larger per season.

Max Power · 02-10-2004, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grbh
Has Dampier actually said he is opting out after this season? I don't know one way or the other.

If he has said that he is pretty follish. I don't think he is going to get more money than he is making now. A longer contract yes, but not larger per season.

Even if he gets slightly less for this season he would be looking out for his long term by signing a deal. He might blow out a knee next season and never get a good contract again. Go for the long term.

MavsFanFinley · 02-10-2004, 10:53 AM

Check the Oakland papers and you'll find something on Dampier and not returning to Oakland next season. It's about all they talk about in regards to the Warriors on the radio stations around here. The biggest talk is that Memphis wants him.

GS will let him walk before they take on some questionable contract.

grbh · 02-10-2004, 11:05 AM

Thanks MFF, I don't blame him, that Golden State team is a mess right now.

Dirkenstien · 02-10-2004, 11:30 AM

I can see Cuban trying to get something done to acquire Dampier...hopefully it a work is in progress. It would be great for the Mavericks.

ddh33 · 02-10-2004, 01:02 PM

I think Dampier is available. I think it's just another case of Mavs management asking themselves if he is worth messing this team up again? I assure you that he would cost Walker at the least. Is a fourth center worth losing a versatile forward who also happens to be the second best playmaker on the team? Those may be the questions hovering around the AAC.

MightyToine · 02-12-2004, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: TheBaron

Quote:

Originally posted by: ddh33
It would balance the team, but I don't think it's "no-brainer" enough for the Mavs. Besides, in that trade, we lose our second best playmaker.

Its "no brainer" enough for me. I would do it in a second.

It seems that "no brains" is the theme here....

I wonder why? [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

This trade is bogus. Dampier only plays well in a contract year....Walker plays his ass off EVERY YEAR.

Keep Walker, forget about DUMPier.

LRB · 02-12-2004, 02:15 PM

The high's on Dampier over Walker is that Dampier has only missed 1 3 pointer all year. He also is shooting over 63% from the FT line, a considerable improvement. Those are also career averages, so throw out the argument about it just being him playing for a contract. He'll definitely be a better shot blocker than Walker and will be better on defending centers, allowing Dirk to return to the 4 spot.

Most likely we won't see the same numbers out of Dampier as we are this year. Also Nellie will be unlikely to play Dampier near as many minutes as Walker. 25 minutes per game would probably the the tops we could hope for. We'll lose out on some of Walker's passing ability.

The real question for me though, is can we get more for Walker if we wait till the off season and then look to move him then.

MightyToine · 02-12-2004, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: LRB
The high's on Dampier over Walker is that Dampier has only missed 1 3 pointer all year. He also is shooting over 63% from the FT line, a considerable improvement. Those are also career averages, so throw out the argument about it just being him playing for a contract. He'll definitely be a better shot blocker than Walker and will be better on defending centers, allowing Dirk to return to the 4 spot.

Most likely we won't see the same numbers out of Dampier as we are this year. Also Nellie will be unlikely to play Dampier near as many minutes as Walker. 25 minutes per game would probably the the tops we could hope for. We'll lose out on some of Walker's passing ability.

The real question for me though, is can we get more for Walker if we wait till the off season and then look to move him then.

Maybe....But who's to say that cuban won't just keep Walker?

LRB · 02-12-2004, 02:28 PM

MT if we can get much more in return for Walker in terms of overall talent in a trade, then I highly doubt that Cubes would do the trade. If we don't get more or only very marginally more, then I doubt Cubes does the trade.

I just happen to think with next year being Walker's last along with his max salary, that we will be able to get a good enough increase in talent for Cubes to pull the trigger.

MightyToine · 02-12-2004, 05:20 PM

But again....If Cubes thinks Walker is too valuable a commodity to go, then what?

There is currently no one out there that has even REMOTELY the same type of skills that Walker has.

Cubes won't make a trade JUST BECAUSE WALKER HAS AN EXPIRING CONTRACT.

LRB · 02-12-2004, 05:45 PM

MT we don't have to some one with the same skills as Walker, we just need a package that overall gives us more talent. For example Walker doesn't block shots nor shoot 3's as well as Raef but we traded Raef for Walker because of other skills that Walker had over Raef. If we don't get more by trading, then we'd be foolish to trade, and if we get more by trading we'd be foolish not to trade.

MightyToine · 02-12-2004, 10:18 PM

Quote:

If we don't get more by trading, then we'd be foolish to trade, and if we get more by trading we'd be foolish not to trade.

Ummm..Yeah. I understand COMPLETELY. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

Poindexter Einstein · 02-12-2004, 11:10 PM

LRB ... You said "... we don't have to [get] some one with the same skills as Walker, we just need a package that overall gives us more talent."

That is the intriguing thing about the additions of Walker and Jamison. They each bring completely different skill sets to the Mavs, and they each work here in different ways. Both have strengths that make a contribution - and both have weaknesses that hurt. Yet there is no question that there is one player too many at the F spot, once Howard progresses to where he will need more minutes on a regular basis (which is going to be next year, no doubt) - there just arent enough minutes to go around.

So if you MUST trade a F to clear up playing time, who of the 4 do you trade? Dirk, Jho, AW, or AJ? I keep Dirk and JHo, and then trade whichever of the Twans will give me the best return.

My GUESS is that means AW gets dealt. Part of that would be due to his all-around game. Part of that would be due to his history of dragging the Celts to the playoffs. And part of that would be due to his contract - in 2004-05 he will be in the last year of a big fat expiring contract, and as we have seen that can bring a boatload of talent in return. In contrast, AJ's contract might actually reduce the return that can be netted in a trade.

I would be happy to trade either one, if that would yield a strong C. And I surely wouldnt make a trade for anything less. If we can get a strong C another way, I would just as happily keep both, but right now it certainly seems to be a surplus at the F position that can be spent to fill a crying need at the C position.

MightyToine · 02-13-2004, 09:10 AM

Man.....I can guarantee you all this :

Until next season, these Walker trades will never stop. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

My bold (and somewhat hopeful) prediction : Walker is still with this team next season. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

dalmations202 · 02-13-2004, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
LRB ... You said "... we don't have to [get] some one with the same skills as Walker, we just need a package that overall gives us more talent."

That is the intriguing thing about the additions of Walker and Jamison. They each bring completely different skill sets to the Mavs, and they each work here in different ways. Both have strengths that make a contribution - and both have weaknesses that hurt. Yet there is no question that there is one player too many at the F spot, once Howard progresses to where he will need more minutes on a regular basis (which is going to be next year, no doubt) - there just arent enough minutes to go around.

So if you MUST trade a F to clear up playing time, who of the 4 do you trade? Dirk, Jho, AW, or AJ? I keep Dirk and JHo, and then trade whichever of the Twans will give me the best return.

My GUESS is that means AW gets dealt. Part of that would be due to his all-around game. Part of that would be due to his history of dragging the Celts to the playoffs. And part of that would be due to his contract - in 2004-05 he will be in the last year of a big fat expiring contract, and as we have seen that can bring a boatload of talent in return. In contrast, AJ's contract might actually reduce the return that can be netted in a trade.

I would be happy to trade either one, if that would yield a strong C. And I surely wouldnt make a trade for anything less. If we can get a strong C another way, I would just as happily keep both, but right now it certainly seems to be a surplus at the F position that can be spent to fill a crying need at the C position.

PE;

I couldn't have written a better post. Keep them coming.

Max Power · 02-13-2004, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: MightyToine
Man.....I can guarantee you all this :

Until next season, these Walker trades will never stop. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

The Walker trade speculation will NEVER stop as long as he's a Mav - take it from a Finley fan. Walker has replaced Finley as the target for all stupid criticism and stupid trade talk from Mavs fans.

FineCubanCigar · 02-13-2004, 12:20 PM

that is a horrible trade for Dallas, Walker has significantly uped his trade value since coming to dallas, and has begun to embrace his role as an assist man, and he brings something to the team that no one else has which is size combined with passing, scoring, and rebound ability. I really like our line-up right now and think that we are one good, not great center away from a championship.

ddh33 · 02-13-2004, 12:32 PM

I agree with you about needing a good - not great center. I would like to have a great center, but they aren't available.

My point is that I'm not really prepared to deal away a forward who is very good for a center that is decent. I would do it, but it would have to be a package deal where we got something else that would peak my attention.

MightyToine · 02-13-2004, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: ddh33
I agree with you about needing a good - not great center. I would like to have a great center, but they aren't available.

My point is that I'm not really prepared to deal away a forward who is very good for a center that is decent. I would do it, but it would have to be a package deal where we got something else that would peak my attention.

Why can't we sign OSTERTAG for the MLE this offseason instead of dealing Walker for a center?? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]

What's wrong with KEEPING Walker and Getting a GOOD Center like Ostertag?