Rate Marquis Daniels' Potential as a PG - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

MavKikiNYC · 04-02-2004, 11:36 AM

On a scale of 1-10, what do you think of Marquis Daniels as a big PG--in the mold, say, of Nate McMillian, or maybe the way the Lakers used Ron Harper a few years back.

Please rate him in terms of POTENTIAL, how good you think he could become as a PG, but I'd be interested to hear people's appraisals of his ball-handling ability, ability to distribute, outside shot, ability to apply defensive pressure to PGs, etc.

MikeB · 04-02-2004, 11:59 AM

I gave him a 6.
I think Marquise is more combo guard than pure point...his handles seem to be pretty good, his outside shot needs improvement but the potential for that improvement is there with work, he is a good ballhawk but doesn't consistently get his hands up to try and distract shooters or get around screens well but that is another thing that can be worked on, he distributes pretty well except on the break where he tries to finish everything himself, I don't see him as a penetrate and dish PG...if he gets inside I think its going up(last night he passed to Walker inside the foul line and surprised him into a missed layup...Walker was getting ready to go for the O board when the pass hit him), I like his post up game as he can drive or shoot that little turnaround. I am trying not to get too carried away with him because as an Auburn fan I am doubly happy about his production...I really like how smooth of a player he seems to be...no BS just goes out and plays and when he screws up he usually does something special to make up for it(like to TO and then steal in the Cleve game and last night with the inbound TO and then he turns around and steals an inbound pass for a dunk).
PG potential 6
Combo Guard potential 8-8.5

kg_veteran · 04-02-2004, 12:10 PM

I gave him a 7, because he's not a "true" point guard like Nash. He doesn't see the floor as well and looks for his shot before he looks to pass; still, he's certainly capable of running the point, and as he becomes more experienced, his floor vision should improve a bit, as should his shot selection/decision-making.

Appraisals of:

ball-handling ability - Excellent. He doesn't appear all that quick, but you rarely see anyone pick his pocket, and when he wants to he can get around his defender pretty much at will, going either left or right.

ability to distribute - As Mike pointed out, pretty good except on the break. On the break, he typically just looks to score it himself. He's got pretty good vision in the halfcourt sets to find the open man.

outside shot - A weakness in his game right now, but he can definitely improve here. He's got pretty decent form on his shot, and in recent weeks has shown an improved ability to hit the three. I think with work in the offseason he can knock down about 35% from 3 next year, which would be very acceptable.

ability to apply defensive pressure to PGs - I think he's a pretty good ballhawk, personally. He sometimes gambles too much, but he has a pretty good ability to recover, and I like the fact that he's usually aggressive defensively, especially in the open court. Long arms and good lateral quickness. I expect that next season you'll see good healthy doses of Daniels/Howard/Finley running trapping and pressing defensive schemes.

dirno2000 · 04-02-2004, 02:55 PM

I gave him a 3. If I just assessed him on his skill set alone the rating would have been higher, but being a pg is more than skills. In the late 80's and early 90's everybody that came out of college in the 6'8 range was billed as the next Magic Johnson. None of those next Magic's really materialized because although they had the skills, the did not have the instincts of a pg. You don't get that unless you grow up playing the point. Knowing when to create and when to shoot IMO is something that can't be taught...you either know or you don't. When I watch Marquis, I don't think pg, I think scorer. As he becomes more comfortable with his place on this team, he seems to be shooting more and passing less. I'm fine with that since he's shooting a good %. I just don't want him running my team full time.

kg_veteran · 04-02-2004, 03:04 PM

Dirno, I'd agree with that, but I can envision Daniels in a Joe Dumars type role in a three guard rotation -- starting shooting guard and backup point guard all rolled up into one.

Nicky31 · 04-02-2004, 03:06 PM

I feel that Daniel's can be a great PG in due time. So far he has been very aggressive on the floor with defense and offense. There has been alot of times where he doesn't seem to look for the open man, but if he takes the time to study Nash's game then that could change very quickly.

He has great quickness for someone that's 6'6'', and shows great poise with handling the ball and making decisions. If I had to choose between him and Walker manning the point for Nash in the playoffs or the future it would have to be Daniel's not even a close margin.

ddh33 · 04-02-2004, 03:11 PM

It really all depends on what you want from your PG.

If you want a guy who is going to get 8-9 assists a game, Daniels may not be your guy. I think he can handle the ball well enough, but his instincts are to score.

I like him much more as a combo guard. But I think he's going to be good enough to do just about anything he is asked to.

grndmstr_c · 04-02-2004, 03:20 PM

I voted 7. I don't really see Daniels as a pg, because, in essence I agree with dirno. He's got the skills, but I'm not convinced he's got the instincts. That said, I think he can be effective playing the position because: 1) I think he can guard PG's, 2) his handles are good enough that I trust him bringing the ball up the court, and 3) with his size and post up game he will be an absolute nightmare for opposing PG's on the offensive end.

dirno2000 · 04-02-2004, 03:26 PM

A lot of it depends on the coach and the offense too. Phil Jackson runs a motion offense and really doesn't need a true point guard. Besides the pick and roll, the Kings offense doesn't really require a true pg either. The problem is those offenses are rare in the NBA because players don't want to or can't play that way. I've just never been a fan of the Gil Arenas type pg that shoots all the time.

kingrex · 04-02-2004, 03:29 PM

Since this thread asks to rate "potential" rather than current ability, I rated Daniels a very high 9.

I rated him so highly for 3 reasons: his athleticism on both ends of the court, his basketball instincts and his coachability.

The kid can leap out of the gym and has the hand & foot speed/quickness to either break a defender down or stay with almost any player he is defending. This type of athleticism if harnessed correctly can result in production on the court (e.g. 31 points against Miami).

Moreover, Marquis (like his fellow rookie, Josh) has basketball instincts that belie his rookie status. Like his athleticism, this basketball smarts leads to production of the floor for seasons to come.

Lastly, the kid seems very coachable. No, airs of being a superstar or knowing more than the coach. This kid seems the type that will listen to instruction and improve his game year by year.

Cybertx · 04-02-2004, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Nicky31
I feel that Daniel's can be a great PG in due time. So far he has been very aggressive on the floor with defense and offense. There has been alot of times where he doesn't seem to look for the open man, but if he takes the time to study Nash's game then that could change very quickly.

He has great quickness for someone that's 6'6'', and shows great poise with handling the ball and making decisions. If I had to choose between him and Walker manning the point for Nash in the playoffs or the future it would have to be Daniel's not even a close margin.

I don't think you can teach somebody tobe a great PG and MD doesn't have it like nash or stockton that's natural to be able to know where everybody is without even looking that's impossible to learn i think ha can become a good PG the likes of francis or davis but he will never be great like nash, stockton or magic.

Nash it's the best true PG in the nba and MD can learn a lot from him, i wouldn't mind if nash teach him to be his heir.

mavsman55 · 04-02-2004, 03:57 PM

I voted 7 because although he has the potential to be a great point guard, he has the potential to be an even greater combo guard/small forward. He can rebound, he's quick, he's a great defender - he'd be much more effective played at SG or SF. But still, he's a very versatile player that could probably play every position except center with ease.

Max Power · 04-02-2004, 08:30 PM

While I agree with dirno, I gave Daniels a 6. He has the potential to be a nice combo guard who won't hurt you at the point. But I don't see him ever replacing Nash.

EricaLubarsky · 04-02-2004, 08:34 PM

He's bigger than Kidd
He's more athletic than Nash
He jumps as high as B-diddy

but he doesnt quite have an elite court vision. He is smoothe as a baby's bottom but he doesnt quite see the court like a starting point guard yet (and definitely not the vision of Kidd or Nash).

I want him around and I wouldnt mind him playing some point but I'd also like to see a true PG backing up Nash

Psychedelic Fuzz · 04-02-2004, 08:37 PM

I gave him a 7. If the NBA can call Steve Francis a point guard with a straight face, then Daniels could be a top notch point guard someday.

If the question is about being a "real" Stockton/Nash/Kidd point guard, I'd have to give him about a 5. I don't see him as that type of pass first player, although maybe that could come with time.

MavKikiNYC · 04-02-2004, 08:55 PM

Interesting comments all. Thanks.

Looking at him last night, I was saying 6. But I just hadn't seen him play enough to have more than the most impressionistic response.

I wanted to think that he could be the type of player to take over for Nash, be a bigger player defensively, and be the start of a Mavs' defensive makeover. But I just didn't get a good vibe about his instincts for dealing the ball, and that's the type of ability that you can only 'develop' so far.

Maybe he could/(can) ultimately develop into a competent point guard, with compensating strengths, but I find it very, very interesting that 15 of 23 people (those rating 6 or 7) had such similar perceptions.

Thanks for responding.

Bayliss · 04-02-2004, 09:17 PM

I would say about a 6 like most of yall said. Here is the biggest thing that bugs me about his game so far. He doesn't "create" anything for his teammates. Absolutely nothing. If there is a 3 on 1 fast break, you can bet that he will try to take it all the way for the score instead of dishing it off and rewarding the other player. If he beats his man off of the dribble then you can bet he is looking to score instead of creating an opportunity for his teammate.

Dirk is not the greatest passer, but there are many times during the course of a guy that he has the ball at the high post and is looking for a cutter, or decides not to take a shot and instead passes it underneath for a guy to have the opportunity at a layup. I don't see those sort of things with Daniels.

(As for his overall game, I think he will be the 2nd best Mav in a couple of years if they keep him. Frazier stood 6'4" and averaged 19 points, 6 rebounds, and 6 assists for his career. Those type of numbers he can attain if he continuous to develop. Perhaps not as great as Frazier because Frazier's team was stacked but between averages, , height, weight, etc... it's not a bad projected career comparison.)

samoan-maverick · 04-03-2004, 01:12 AM

Marquis gets a 5 at PG. 7 at SG.

Does anyone else realize he'll give Dirk the ball two or three times during the whole game???

His main option is our other rookie Josh Howard or Finley, I dont really like that but is that Marquises decision or Nellies to play the 2 man rookie ball???

OutletPass · 04-03-2004, 02:37 AM

I'm not a big fan of the shoot first PG either and it looks like Marquis is headed down that road. I certainly agree with Dirno2000 when he says that good PG's are born and have played the position all of their lives. It's one spot where you can't be taught "instincts". You either have them or you don't.

While I give Marquis high grades for his athleticism, I give him fairly low grades as a PG. I'd love for him to develop at the 1, but I still think his future is at the 2.

foglemann · 04-03-2004, 03:15 AM

I give Marqui a high grade, 9. I love the larger PG type guys in the league. I said it once and I will say it again, he comes from the Jamal Crawford/ Gilbert school of basketball. Pretty much it is having a SG that can dribble and pass good enough. Then your SG doesn't have to be that great shooter, he could be a defensive specialist.

Back on track, I don't understand the arguement that Marqui 'doesn't find his teammates on the floor'. When he has played the point guard position, he has done the job. The two games he actually started the PG position, he had 9 and 8 assists repectively.

Bayliss, the comparison that he doesn't pass it like Dirk at the top of the key is ludicrus. Dirk is an all star and this is the first year that no one is yelling about his horrible passing skills, which he has dramatically improved. Marqui is a freakin rookie, oh, he missed an assignment, take him out back and shoot him. He will improve and learn, I promise.

I think if you compare Nash's court vision to Marqui's, its like apple's to oranges, they will never be alike. Nash will never look for his shot first and Marqui will never look for his teammates first, in general. That is the type of pg he is, but he needs to play that position to get his full usage on the bball court. He must have that ball in his hands to create. He can do a great job at the position and I think he should be used more as a backup PG than a starting SG.

mmmfast · 04-03-2004, 03:22 AM

He's a 5 at PG. Too many 'do-it-myself' breaks.
If he can't dish to Dirk, who will he toss a dime to?

Anyone else planning on getting some M. Daniels false fronts?

dude1394 · 04-03-2004, 11:16 AM

Well at best he's only so-so at pg right now fogelmann. He's averagine 1.6 apg. In his defense I think nellie is telling him to be aggressive offensively and he is. But I don't think he looks pass first by any means. I don't know if he will change or need to but right now he's a shooting guard basically.

MavsFanFinley · 04-03-2004, 02:51 PM

I gave him an 8.

I think Nelson has given him a lot of leeway this season to go out there and be comfortable. When he makes a mistake he lets him know about it and Daniels appears to be a good listener.

If Nelson is here for another couple years, I have no doubt that he'll use/turn Daniels into a pg. They'll work with him in the summer league and training camp about passing, etc...Remember how they wanted to use Buckner as a pg before he signed elsewhere? Or the talk of using Welsch at the point?

It's going to be tough finding any pg for this team because everyone is looking for another Nash. Someone who can shoot/score, and has incredible vision/passing skills.

OutletPass · 04-03-2004, 03:13 PM

Hey, MFF....Does Marquis remind you of Arenas in his rookie year ?

OutletPass · 04-03-2004, 03:16 PM

Edit: Double freaking post.

Redbug · 04-03-2004, 05:22 PM

I agree more with the idea of combo guard rather than a pure PG......as he gains more confidence and experince lookout!!! His ability to get into passing lanes with his long arms, his quick explosive jumping ability whether going after a rebound or blocking a shot, his sneaky quickness and ability to "slither past defenders to get to the rim and finish are all things current Mav guards have lacked on a consistent basis....

Being an Razorback fan...Daniels just killed us every game...you'd be in a dogfight....needing a stop of two and he'd just "slip in and score every damn time down...or get a putback...if you were down a few buckets...he'd just keep his team ahead....the guy's a WINNER....he just finds a way to get it done...

on a side note: I love the way both Daniels and Howard both attack the boards and GO AFTER THE BALL....instead of standing there watching it...hoping it comes to them...like a lot of the other Mavs do....

DubOverdose · 04-03-2004, 05:38 PM

He averages 2.48 assists per turnover. Nash is 3.18. Finley is at 2.56 and is #28 in the league in that area.
He ranks #3 in the NBA for steals per turnover at 1.23.

I wouldn't be surprised if Nellie encourages Daniels to shoot a high volume for a rookie. Opposing teams won't defend him as tightly as they do to Dirk, Nash, Finley, etc. He has a good shot, even some range, so it doesn't seem out of the question that he could be advised to shoot when he is open. He has shown glimpses of being pretty good giving assists and I think he'll be able to get better especially with Nash's help. I didn't watch any summer league, but Nelson has said that in the summer league he put Daniels at PG and he was horrible, so he's obviously made a good amount of progress in one season and seems to be very eager to listen to his coaches and learn how to be a good PG.

OutletPass · 04-03-2004, 06:12 PM

originally posted by DubOverdose:

Quote:

Nelson has said that in the summer league he put Daniels at PG and he was horrible,

--I have no idea why Nellie would say that.I watched all of the summer league games...and Marquis did really well. He absolutely destroyed Earl Watson of Memphis one night with 38 points, 6 reb and 6 asst.

oh, well. that's just Nellie.

dude1394 · 04-03-2004, 06:16 PM

I think that the 38 points, 6 assists sort of shows he's more of a sg than a pg. Looks like stevie franchise numbers.

Drbio · 04-03-2004, 06:17 PM

I gave him a 6 for many of the reasons already listed here.

OutletPass · 04-03-2004, 06:28 PM

I'm not promoting him as a PG....just saying when he played there in summer league...he lit everyone up.

See my previous comments in the thread....I still think he's a 1/2 combo.

When MFF comes back on, she can give a good opinion...she and I watched a million GS games...and it just seems to me that, in a few ways, Marquis is Arenas revisited.

MavsFanFinley · 04-03-2004, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Hey, MFF....Does Marquis remind you of Arenas in his rookie year ?

Absolutely. It's funny because the talk in GS after Arenas left was that they wanted to use Welsch as a pg as a way to get him playing time. Both Nelson's mentioned the same thing once he was traded here.

I have mentioned it before and agree with those that say Daniels is a perfect combo guard. With the way this team is built, anyone can bring the ball up the court without too much trouble. However, with Nash out we need someone who can handle the pressure if the other team presses and Daniels can handle that, imo.

I remember he had nice numbers in the summer league but we all wanted to wait and see if he could do that in the NBA. So far, he has done a good job. And I believe they'll monitor him on the summer league team again this summer.

OutletPass · 04-03-2004, 08:52 PM

Glad you said that...MFF...Marquis is so Arenas. He's so much like Gil that it's freaky...

Maybe a good thing...or a mixed bag.

I hope that it'll be good.

foglemann · 04-04-2004, 01:11 AM

dude, he has barely played the pg position itself, he now plays almost exclusively the sg position. The two games which he actually played the majority of the game at pg, he got 9 and 8 assists respectively. The only other time he plays the pg position is about 10 plays in the game for nash when he is out and half of those times all it is is bringing up the court, nothing else. I think it is unfair to say he is Fransis or Areanas, clearly he is that TYPE of PG. BUT saying it might not be good to have that type of player on a team is retarded, he is a weapon, plain and simple...