Raef and Jiri and a #1..... for Terry?

[Hitman]

Lets say the Mavs were coming off a 52 win season in which they lost in the first round to the Sacramento Kings.

That shouldn't be so hard.

Now lets say that the Mavs lost Steve Nash to free agency.

That shouldn't be so hard either.

Now lets say that a big reason for the Mavs dissapointing season was because they didn't really have a center.

Again...not that difficult.

Now...lets pretend the reason they didn't have a center was because our center, Raef LaFrentz missed a lot of the season because of knee surgery. But...he has progressed nicely, is training hard this summer and looks to make a full recovery. He is 100% now, and will be going full tilt when training camp opens.
Oh...and by the way....Jiri Welsch looks great too. Not that you asked.

Here is the question:

Does Cuban trade Raef La Frentz and Jiri Welsch to get Jason Terry?

Or would he rather keep his center and let Jiri and Marquis and Devin handle the load?

Everyone who defended the Walker deal because of the value of his expriring contract need to offer their mea culpas now...IMO.

Now I don't want to jump to conclusions, because it is still early August.... BUT....if this is it for the Mavericks, then they really have not done a good job.

[endtroducing]

raef lafrentz is trash. by the way, the way you presented this is completely bogus...because of the walker trade, among other things, dallas is in a prime position to get themselves a very competent and solid center. raef had a bad contract, and didn't play well enough to earn it. simple as that.

[MikeB]

1)They braintrust thought that Walker would work out here.
2)a healthy Raef still sucks
3)re-read #2 then think of how much he is paid and for how long.
4)Terry is worlds better than Jiri

[Murphy3]

A healthy Raef does not suck. If he sucks, I suppose most players in the NBA suck.

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: endtroducing
raef lafrentz is trash. by the way, the way you presented this is completely bogus...because of the walker trade, among other things, dallas is in a prime position to get themselves a very competent and solid center. raef had a bad contract, and didn't play well enough to earn it. simple as that.

How is Dallas in prime position to get themselves a very competent center because of the Walker trade? They just traded the two assets they acquired for LaFrentz, Jiri Welsch and a #1 pick away for ....

Jason Terry.

How many GM's in this league would trade LaFrentz, Welsch and a #1 pick for Jason Terry?

My prediction?

None.

[endtroducing]

hm, would you rather have a rookie point guard, a marginally talented center with a huge contract, and a bunch of scrubs?

or a veteran, very good point guard, with a bunch of tradeable assets to land some very good players?

[endtroducing]

Originally posted by: Hitman

How is Dallas in prime position to get themselves a very competent center because of the Walker trade? They just traded the two assets they acquired for LaFrentz, Jiri Welsch and a #1 pick away for ....

Jason Terry.

How many GM's in this league would trade LaFrentz, Welsch and a #1 pick for Jason Terry?

My prediction?

None.

dude. because they unloaded the salary of Walker and Jamison, they got a ton of tradeable assets like Stackhouse, Laettner, Henderson, a draft pick, etc.

[aexchange]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
A healthy Raef does not suck. If he sucks, I suppose most players in the NBA suck.

how many times did we see raef put up 7 points on 2-7 shooting, while only grabbing 3 rebounds, 1 block and collecting 5 fouls in 28 minutes?

NO THANKS!

[MwS]

What are the chances that Raef will actually be healthy? From everything I read last year it sounded like his knees problems would linger for the rest of his career.

[endtroducing]

it's not like Raef was a true center, either.

[chumdawg]

If Cubes didn't want to have Nash at 10mm per year, then I think it's very safe to say that he wouldn't want Raef at the money he makes.

That would appear to be the biggest issue in this particular deal.

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: endtroducing

dude. because they unloaded the salary of Walker and Jamison, they got a ton of tradeable assets like Stackhouse, Laettner, Henderson, a draft pick, etc.

Jamison was acquired in the trade of Nick Van Exel.

Stackhouse and Laettner were in the Jamison trade.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Bayliss]

I like Welsch. I believe Jiri Welsch will have a Brent Barry type career. He will be a combo guard that is great to have to spread the defense with his tremdous shooting.

But I'd do a Raef + Jiri for Terry any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Should I remind you that Raef played maybe 10 games last year. And from all reports, he still isn't healthy yet. I'd rather have a legimiate starting point guard than n unhealthy center and a duplicate swingman.

[MikeB]

If a healthy Raef doesn't suck...then I ask...how often was Raef Healthy?
I only saw about 6 games when he didn't stink it up. Is that the #?

[endtroducing]

Originally posted by: Hitman

Jamison was acquired in the trade of Nick Van Exel.

Stackhouse and Laettner were in the Jamison trade.

What the hell are you talking about?

no shit, sherlock. since they dumped both salaries, they were able to fill needs and get parts for a future trade.

that's a hell of a lot better than having an overpaid F/C who can't play. get over it.

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: endtroducing

no shit, sherlock. since they dumped both salaries, they were able to fill needs and get parts for a future trade.

that's a hell of a lot better than having an overpaid F/C who can't play. get over it.

What are you like 10 years old? This thread is not about the NVE for Jamison for Lattner/ Stackhouse deal.

Do you not understand that?

[endtroducing]

the Mavericks have done good...my point is, had they kept Raef, none of this would have happened. and this situation is a lot better than if he were here.

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: endtroducing
the Mavericks have done good...my point is, had they kept Raef, none of this would have happened. and this situation is a lot better than if he were here.

No, actually they could have kept Raef and Jiri ...

and still traded Nick for Antoine Jamision

and still packaged Jamison for Lattner, Stackhouse and Devin.

So one thing has nothing to do with the other.

[Stitch Jones]

Originally posted by: Hitman

How is Dallas in prime position to get themselves a very competent center because of the Walker trade? They just traded the two assets they acquired for LaFrentz, Jiri Welsch and a #1 pick away for ....

Jason Terry.

How many GM's in this league would trade LaFrentz, Welsch and a #1 pick for Jason Terry?

My prediction?

None.

Hmmm... I thought the deal was Walk and Delk for JT, Henderson AND a future #1.

[basketball jonessss]

Now lets say that a big reason for the Mavs dissapointing season was because they didn't really have a center.

Lets make it more believable and say that we have a center sitting on the pine and a coach that refuses to play him even thought the statistics say he is wrong.


Do I trade Raef and Jiri to get Terry. Without a doubt. Do I also get a # 1?

[Hitman]

Raef and Jiri and a #1 to get Terry? Are you mad?

That decision would make absolutely ZERO basketball sense. J

ason Terry is a shoot first point guard whose per 48 minute stats last year were no better than Jiri's per 48 minute stats.

And Jiri is 3 years younger and was getting his first taste of NBA minutes. Plus he is 6 foot 7 inches tall and is a great rebounder from his position.

Jason Terry vs. Jiri Welsch is very close.

If you add Raef La Frentz and a #1 pick, then the argument becomes ridiculous.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Hitman

How is Dallas in prime position to get themselves a very competent center because of the Walker trade? They just traded the two assets they acquired for LaFrentz, Jiri Welsch and a #1 pick away for ....

Jason Terry.

How many GM's in this league would trade LaFrentz, Welsch and a #1 pick for Jason Terry?

My prediction?

None.

Hitman this is actually a little or possibly more missleading. To be more accurate let's say that Mills contract was expiring this year instead of last year. Then we would be trading an expiring contract in Mills, Jiri, Raef for Terry, and a much bigger expring contract in Henderson which is 80% paid for before luxary tax by insurance we also swapped our pick for this past year for Philly's protect pick. Additionally we got 2 relatively small trade exemptions. One which would expire in Oct. and one which expires a year from now.

Now Terry fits our needs much better than Jiri would, since he' more experienced and more of a true point guard, although he's not a true point guard just more of one than Jiri.

Henderson allows us to get rid of Raefs contract and still have a very tradeable piece. In fact I think Henderson is more tradeable than Raef IMO becasue of his expiring insurance covering contract. With a Cash incentive a team can actually make money by taking this contract. Not a bad deal for an IR spot. Odds are that Philly's pick will be higher than our pick now, so that is a good gamble. Also we wouldn't have room on our team for another player anyways, so it's better to trade the pick. the 2 TE aren't worth that much, but they're not bad to have either.

A better way to look at this is as 2 trades. Would you have traded Mills and Jiri for Terry and a TE. Terry more fits our needs than Jiri and Mills was a wasted roster spot on a team with too many roster spots. This trade lets us reduce roster spots and meet our needs at PG.

No trade 2 is trading Raef and and what would have been our pick this year to Atl for Henderson's expiring contract with 80% insurance coverage and Philly's pick that Atlanta has. This cuts down on roster spots, gets rid of Raefs horrible contract, and gets a tradeable asset in Henderson's expiring contract. We have plenty of center help, so Raef is expendable.

Looking at it this way, it sure doesn't look as good to me as moving Delk and Walker, but it still looks like a couple of decent trades for the Mavs.

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: basketball jonessss

Lets make it more believable and say that we have a center sitting on the pine and a coach that refuses to play him even thought the statistics say he is wrong.


Do I trade Raef and Jiri to get Terry. Without a doubt. Do I also get a # 1?

No, you don't get a #1, but you get to give away one.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Hitman

No, you don't get a #1, but you get to give away one.

Actually we trade away a #1 and get a #1. And we also get Henderson's expiring and insurance protected contract.

[Pongo]

for terry and *tamtamtamdiwooosh* HENDERSON!
^^

[Hitman]

LRB -

I appreciate your well thought out arguement in contrast to the people who say things like

"Raef blows dude what the hellsnit are you taling bouuut?"

But anyway....

The term "tradeable piece" is a word used in Maverickland more than any other place.

We all love tradeable "pieces."

The term "tradeable piece" was the reason why many (including myself, mind you) defended the Walker trade.

But....if that tradeable piece, that we acquired for Raef, Jiri and a # 1 draft pick only landed us Jason Freaking Terry in return...

then I wonder how valuable that piece was.

Or I wonder how good we were in getting value in return.

The bottom line is....

I am, and will continue to be skeptical about all these "tradeable pieces" unitil we get something really valuable in return.

Because we all know that value is determined by the price someone else is willing to pay for it.

So....we shall see.

[LRB]

Hitman, we won't know if Henderson will bring us anything worth while until we A) either trade him or B) cut him or C) pass the trade deadline without doing either of the 1st 2. However even if we get nothing for him, we've gotten out of Raef's contract and replaced Reaef with cheaper, younger, and truer centers (Benga and Pavel) without having to buyout his monster contract. Cubes made a mistake in signing raef to that contract in the 1st place. It's nice to have a do over.

Still we could trade Henderson for some garbage just as expensive as Raef and which would produce less. Hell I'd be happy if we could trade Henderson and our #1 from philly to Charlotte for an unprotected #1. Not that I think that it's a real good possibility, but I'd love it.

[chumdawg]

Is it a forgone conclusion that Henderson has nothing to offer us on the court?

[Pongo]

is it a forgone conclusion that the bobcats win 60+ games?
...
nothing really is...

[LRB]

Originally posted by: chumdawg
Is it a forgone conclusion that Henderson has nothing to offer us on the court?

No, but Bradley is probably more likely to lead the league in minutes played. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Pongo]

lol... or like walker leading the league in three-point percentage... or...*insertanotherwalkerjoke* ;[

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: LRB
Hitman, we won't know if Henderson will bring us anything worth while until we A) either trade him or B) cut him or C) pass the trade deadline without doing either of the 1st 2. However even if we get nothing for him, we've gotten out of Raef's contract and replaced Reaef with cheaper, younger, and truer centers (Benga and Pavel) without having to buyout his monster contract. Cubes made a mistake in signing raef to that contract in the 1st place. It's nice to have a do over.

Still we could trade Henderson for some garbage just as expensive as Raef and which would produce less. Hell I'd be happy if we could trade Henderson and our #1 from philly to Charlotte for an unprotected #1. Not that I think that it's a real good possibility, but I'd love it.

What are the odds that either Pavel or Benga will one day average 15 points and 7+ rebounds and 3 blocks per game?

If they do, they would be considered a gamble worth risk....

Problem is, Raef has already done that.

Does he have flaws?

Absolutely.

Will Pavel and DBenga have serious flaws that we will discuss ad naseum?

Absolutely.

If EITHER one of them was turns out to be as good as Raef La Frentz, then they will have had themselves a pretty good career...

[MikeB]

I'd much rather them average 8 ppg and 12 rbs.
Raef was misused here and thankfully is gone...lets move forward.

[Pongo]

maybe one of them will average 9.3 pts, 4.8rpg and 1.3 block per game, like raef did in his (only) complete season as a mav...

but then again... maybe not

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

52 wins, 1st round exit, Nash leaves.

Does Cuban trade Jiri and Raef for Jason Terry?

I find the whole thing to be an exercise in futility. For starters, the mavs might have won more than 52 games if not for an ill-fitting piece like Walker. To throw the whole intermediate step out the window makes no sense.
If we're going to deal in hypotheticals, what about Mills? Do you really think Cuban would have sat on that expiring contract instead of moving it?

You are asking if I would keep another jump shooter, and a pf/c who had a big bag of nothing last season, a rediculous contract, and didn't look to be "the answer" even when he was healthy...or if I would trade them to fill an immediate pressing need and get back a pg with a moderately friendly contract, another expiring deal, a trade exception and a first round draft pick?

I do that deal every day of the week, twice on sunday.

Besides all that, it is a gross mischaracterization to refer to the deal just as Raef/Jiri for Terry. I'll buy that when the trade deadline passes and Henderson is still here and the number 1 yields a scrub.

[Big Boy Laroux]

this is all just ridiculous conjecture. the fact is, it is NOT trading raef and Jiri for Terry. you can look at it that way, but that is utterly and completely useless.

fuzz, you are absoultely correct. 52 wins is not related to raef and jiri being on this team.

let's ask another hypothetical... would you trade NVE for Stackhouse and Devin Harris? (I'm leaving the other aspects of the deal out, just like our man Hitman)

[binbin]

well, this is certainly an interesting way to look at things, but imo it is also a borderline meaningless way.

why stop at terry? what if terry becomes a key element for mavs to land kidd and zo? does that make this trade a good deal? what if, after mavs land kidd, kidd breaks his knees and spends the rest of his life on wheelchairs? or better yet, what if after kidd breaks his knees, zo miraculously returns to his '99-'00 form and becomes a dominating big man again? r we supposed to adjust our judgment of the trade each time things happen?

ok, nobody can predict what the future is like, we can only judgment from what we already know. sure, but then why start from raef + jiri? we got raef in the juwan howard deal, and jiri in the nve deal (btw, i saw a post claiming the nve deal is totally separated from the raef deal, but aren't these two deals both orginated from the juwan howard deal?) so, instead of "Raef and Jiri and a #1..... for Terry?" shouldn't the question be "juwan howard and tim hardaway... for devin harris, stackhouse, l8tner, booth, and terry"? what about the trade that brought juwan howard to mavs? what about the trades before that which brought mavs players that were used to get juwan howard?

now, u tell me how meaningful this way is to assess how good a job mavs organization has done.

[Big Boy Laroux]

would you do a laettner for laettner trade? i sure as hell would!

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: Big Boy Laroux
would you do a laettner for laettner trade? i sure as hell would!

Genius.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Hitman

What are the odds that either Pavel or Benga will one day average 15 points and 7+ rebounds and 3 blocks per game?

If they do, they would be considered a gamble worth risk....

Problem is, Raef has already done that.

Does he have flaws?

Absolutely.

Will Pavel and DBenga have serious flaws that we will discuss ad naseum?

Absolutely.

If EITHER one of them was turns out to be as good as Raef La Frentz, then they will have had themselves a pretty good career...

Raef did average almost 15 pts, 7+ boards and 3 blocks for a litle over half a season with Denver. Those were not his normal averages. More like 11.9 points, 6.9 rebounds and 2.15 blocks over 28.9 minutes for his carreer. The blocks are decent for a center, good possibly. The rebounding sucks. The points are nothing but roleplayer numbers. Problem was even with a goodly number of blocks, Raef was never much of an intimimidator. For every blocked shot Bradley gets he alters at least 2 or 3. Raef rarely altered shots, either he blocked them or he didn't. But rarely did he cause players to miss because of pure intimidation. Raef also was not a very physical player. He was more PF than C. Raef also didn't show up much in the playoffs. His number of 8.9 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 2.15 bpg, 4.5 fpg and 26.3 mpg clearly weren't getting it done. I'm willing to take more than a few chances to get improvement there. Reaf was a decent, but not good role player scorer. He was good shot blocker but poor intimidator. He had serious foul problems. He was a great 3pt shooter, but a bad rebounder. I'll take my shot with Benga and Pavel thank you very much.