Nowitzki ... The Best Player in the West? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

aexchange · 02-05-2002, 04:49 PM

During halftime of the Mavs-Lakers, Jayson Williams predicted that Dirk Nowitzki would be the best player in the Western Conference by the end of next year, better than Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, or Duncan.

What are your thoughts on this?

Blonde Bomber · 02-05-2002, 05:07 PM

Jason Williams is a complete idiot..
You noticed that he took back what he said after Dirk dismall performance
against the Lake Show in the second half.

That being said..Nowitzki will be one of the top 5 players in the NBA next year.

What I don't understand is why he (Jason) said Dirk would be "the best in the West" next year. Why didn't he just say "the best in the NBA".
Because the talent in the West is far better than in the East.

madape · 02-05-2002, 05:17 PM

Well, didn't Iverson win the MVP last year? Some people including think that McGrady is the best in the league right now. There are other superstars too, like Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Jason Kidd, and Michael Jordan. The West may have by far the more dominant teams, but the East does have its share of young studs. It is not a foregone conclusion that the best player in the league will be in the west.

That said, Jayson Williams is a fool. Shaq will be the best player in the league for years.

Murphy3 · 02-05-2002, 06:52 PM

to be honest, dallas has 2 maybe 3 guys that would outscore iverson easily if they were allowed to have as much offensive freedom.

without a doubt, nash and dirk would average more.. both can create at will and can hit the outside jumpshot.

finley would be close to iverson but his lack of ability to drive at times might keep him from averaging as much as iverson.

mcgrady, nice player, but he hasn't done near enough to warrant the title as the best player in the nba

LAC-HocusPocus · 02-05-2002, 06:55 PM

I think Nash could easily score as much as Iverson, cause he can create. Dirk could if Nash kept feeding him the ball but as far as him creating it on his own like Iverson he couldn't score half as Iverson. Nash is a creator and Dirk is a shooter, who can shoot the lights out if guys set him up in the right spot. That's just my opinion and I am sure not everyone will agree.

Murphy3 · 02-05-2002, 07:10 PM

obviously, any player that plays any position other than the point guard relies very heavily on a point guard getting him the ball.

would shaq score 27-30 a game if the point guard on the team decided to not give him the ball? no, of course not.

lac-hocus pocus, please read and learn. We all want to help you learn about the game. I realize that it will take awhile, but we'll be here to support you.

to say that dirk is only a jumpshooter, well, this is an ignorant statement. How is it ignorant? take in a game and you will see that your opinion is either based upon not watching enough mavericks games or simply, not knowing basketball

Murphy3 · 02-05-2002, 07:22 PM

Iverson
Pts 30.2
FGA 27.4
Pts/Attempt 1.102

Dirk
Pts 24.1
FGA 17.0
Pts/Attempt 1.418

Nash
Pts 19.7
FGA 14.4
Pts/Attempt 1.368

so, for dirk to score 30 points per game on the same amount of field goal attempts as iverson, he would simply need to make 3 shots on 10 attempts...none of them would need to be three pointers and he wouldn't even need to average any more free throw attempts per game.

without a doubt, dirk would average more than iverson.

Iverson is very much overrated

LAC-HocusPocus · 02-05-2002, 07:31 PM

You had an opinionated post, no facts supporting your theory. Do Iverson need the PG to give him the ball? Do Shaq need for the PG to give him the ball? Yes, but they're point guards aren't as good as Nash. They do not have to have shots, and are willing to give their shots to their best players. Nash is not going to give all his shots up for Dirk to score that many. Snow and Fisher/Hunter will give up their shots. Shaq is a totally different case, he is an inside player and most teams play the inside out game, correct me if I am wrong. Shaq will get his 27-30 for the simple fact that his teammates know that for them to win he has to get his 27-30. Dirk does not need that many points for the Mavs to win, but the Lakers do. Shaq will get his on FT's, Dunks, Layups, and shots very close to the basket. Nash has to put the ball in a certain spot for Dirk to do his thing, all the PG for the Lakers have to do is put the ball in Shaqs hand. It's very easy to see watching the game that if the Mavs didn't have a great PG like Nash then Dirk would not be as sucessful. If Hardaway was the starting PG then Dirk wouldn't score as much, I think we both know that. Dirk is an shooter, and it takes a great PG to put an shooter in a position to score. I am not saying he gets every single point off of jumpshots, but he do get a majority of his shots on jumpshots and FT's. How many times have you seen the guy get to the line off of a foul on a jumpshot? Quite a few, I am sure they don't keep that stat but I am sure he leads the league in that category. This is no knock on Dirk, heck I love the guys game. I just think it's about time for everyone to start giving Nash ALOT of credit for his sucess. Yes, I know Dirk needs some of the credit, but it's quite obvious he needs Nash to be the player he is now and will be in the future. Once again, I love Dirks game and believe he will someday be 1 of the best players hands down in the league in the very NEAR future.

irontoad · 02-05-2002, 07:45 PM

Good god, Iverson takes almost 30 shot attempts per game?? I agree Murphy, the dude is probably way overrated. Don't get me wrong, Iverson's a great player with a hell of a lot of talent, but you give any good player 30 shot attempts per game and they'll probably get a good scoring average. And I agree, give Dirk or Nash that number of shot attempts per game and they'd probably have a higher scoring average than iverson.

Murphy3 · 02-05-2002, 07:48 PM

for his size...iverson is amazing..
but that shouldn't have anything to do with how he's rated in the NBA. he's not one of the top players in the NBA.. you simply can't shoot as poorly as he is and be a top 5 player in the league.

Murphy3 · 02-05-2002, 07:51 PM

to be honest, no..dirk doesn't necessarily need a great point guard.
you may ask why..it's obvious, he creates such a mismatch with virtually every player in the NBA that he has a way to score on anyone. He can either shoot over or driver around (one or the other) any player in the NBA. if he can't shoot over them..he can almost certainly drive around them.

TheKid · 02-05-2002, 08:41 PM

That's why I think it's tough to compare Dirk to Iverson because PART of what makes Iverson so great is that he's 6 foot nothing and creates shots for himself. While I know he takes a lot of bad shots at times, there are players who couldn't even get off that many shots if given the opportunity. THAT being said, Dirk probably can't be as "creative" as Iverson but I don't think Dirk will EVER have a problem getting any shot off and if he decided to say, "Fuck it, I'm shooting the ball 50 times" he could.

When I look at exceptional players, that comes into consideration, not every player in the NBA has the ability to get shots off that has a chance of going in. For instance, I'll take Grant Hill. One of the more versatile players in the NBA, but he will NEVER be able to get 30 shots a game that has a decent chance of going in. Neither would Scottie Pippen or players like that. HOWEVER that's not to say these players aren't good players but certain talents they don't have players such as Iverson, McGrady, Kobe do have. NOW Dirk could be one of those players, but that's not his game, do I think Dirk could get off that many shots YES, do I think he could do it through an entire season, YES.. A quick note to add, do I think Nash is capable of doing that through an entire season, NO!

Murphy3 · 02-05-2002, 08:54 PM

no, dirk can't be creative but he's 7'0..he doesn't have to be as creative.

so..because spud webb was short, does it make him better than any other guy that averaged 7-8 points a game?

yes, it is harder for iverson because of his height but that doesn't make him a more productive player because he has to work harder for his shots.. it makes him more of a novelty and maybe more exciting..however, it doesn't make him a better player.

threadkilla · 02-05-2002, 09:27 PM

Iverson is the LEADER of the sixers. He led that team to the eastern conference finals last year. He misses alot of shots along the way. He also flat out wins games by himself. When Dirk can do that as often as AI does then we can talk. Despite point per shot stats AI is more of a difference maker then Dirk at this point.

TheKid · 02-06-2002, 09:48 AM

Murph you completely missed my point. I was NOT saying Iverson is more productive because he's smaller, I said that's what makes what he does special, however that doesn't take away anything from Dirk. So I don't get the Spud Webb comment or the reason for it. Actually I was agreeing with what you said earlier. While Dirk isn't as creative as Iverson I SAID TOO he doesn't need to be because he still has the ability to get shots off that other players can't.

You're so ready to strike at anyone who doesn't have the highest things to say about Dirk. NO ONE is taking anything away from Dirk.

Murphy3 · 02-08-2002, 04:48 AM

my point is..is that if you put any of 15-20 players on that philadelphia team, they could do what iverson does..and probably be more effective.
the reason they are successful is because of their defense and not because of iverson.
he's simply a poor shooter that puts up enough shots to score alot of points.

yes, he's special because he's a great player at his height..however, to do what he does..there are several players in the NBA that could go score 30 points on that team in less shots than iverson.
end of story

TheKid · 02-08-2002, 05:20 AM

In your mind it's the end of the story but what you said is STRICTLY opinion, not factual so until Iverson get's traded and someone fills in and does a better job than I'll continue to give Iverson credit for what he does.

Murphy3 · 02-08-2002, 05:27 AM

i'll give him his credit here

pathetic shooter
ball hog
survives on a team that wins because of defense
inflated stat guy
overrated
great for his height
scores alot of points because he throws up 27 shots a game.

there, he's got all the credit he deserves

TheKid · 02-08-2002, 05:36 AM

However Larry Brown and the majority of coaches and players thinks much more of him than you.. I tell you what I'll stick with their opinions, but thanks for expressing with us your opinion great one.

Murphy3 · 02-08-2002, 07:33 AM

i'm sure a very significant amount of the players agree with my opinion.
nellie said a couple of years ago that finley could do the same thing in philadelphia that iverson does... so at least one coach does.

however, most players aren't going to piss in each other's milk and say something negative about another player.

and to be honest, there was quite a bit of people up in arms last year with iverson winning the award over players like shaq

TheKid · 02-08-2002, 09:58 PM

I don't care who wins the MVP, each year there will be someone who will NOT agree with who wins it. Once again I didn't say ANYONE couldn't do what Iverson does, I'm saying I'm NOT going to diminish what he does simply because it seems like he just hucks up a bunch of shots. Sorry I don't think so. This a team that you say is so dead set on being a defensive team that LOSE a NUMBER of consecutive games until Iverson came back.

aexchange · 04-30-2003, 10:57 AM

so anything change?

Dooby · 04-30-2003, 11:08 AM

Where do you find these old threads?

I think it has been clearly established that Jayson Williams has pore judgment, and possibly a one-way ticket to the pokey.

Dirk has trouble convincing people he is top 5 in the West, much less the no. 1 player.

mavsfanforever · 04-30-2003, 11:17 AM

Dirk is gonna be the BEST IN THE NBA, but I do not see that next year. I definitely see that in 2-3 years from now.

nowitzki_prophecy · 04-30-2003, 11:28 AM

im sorry but dirk is much better than Kobe,and Duncan.

Kobe is one of the most overrated players in the history of the NBA,if Dirk or even Steve or Mike had Shaq at their side,they would've easily gotten those 3.
we seen Kobe at the beginnin of the year all alone,he put some amazing stats,33 ppg if im not mistaken,but was almost last at his division.

about duncan,well,he's game is sure is ugly,but the boy is a damn good BBall player.
i just happen to think Dirk is better.

Shaq is better than Dirk,no question about it,and i think Dirk is somewhat tied With Tracy and KG,though in a couple of years he should defenitly be the best,over Shaq,over everybody.

TheKid · 04-30-2003, 11:50 AM

This thread is funny....

Anyway, a year later, I would say that Dirk has progressed in saying he's truly one of the elite in the West but I'd still be a tad bit reluctant to say he's the best. Contrary to what people think I truly think McGrady is the best right now. What he's doing is amazing. He won't win the championship this year or maybe never, but the fact his team has a chance to advance in the playoffs (even if it is in the East) is remarkable to say the least.

Every team in the playoffs now (with the exception of the Sixers) would still be there if you took off their "star" player, so that just gives me alot of respect for McGrady. Now if he started playing some defense, that would make him that much better.

nowitzki_prophecy · 04-30-2003, 12:14 PM

<< Now if he started playing some defense, that would make him that much better. >>

hehe,so said a guy who loves Dirk[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]tracys Defense is fine,not superb ala "the glove" but he's OK.

yea,tracy is defenitly or the best,or second best after Shaq.
what he did with the Magic was amazing.
dont be mistaken,he's all alone over there,Gooden shmooden,he's taking them to the eastern Semis all alone.he's much much better than kobe,by far.
he's showen amazing leadership abileties,that Kobe could only dream of.

Epitome22 · 04-30-2003, 12:16 PM

LOl at Dirk being much better than Kobe or Duncan

Don't get ahead of yourself fellas.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2003, 12:20 PM

If you're doing it in the East, does it really matter?
Is it really that impressive? Sure, he's a great player but he's going up against some rather mediocre teams.

Personally, I wouldn't put McGrady any higher than #2 or #3 at best.

I'm hoping that someone catches the irony here

Murphy3 · 04-30-2003, 12:23 PM

Anything change?
KG, McGrady, and dirk continue to rise while Kobe drops...Pierce completely drops out of the mix. AI and Kidd never were candidates

ariosto · 04-30-2003, 12:33 PM

<< Anything change?
KG, McGrady, and dirk continue to rise while Kobe drops...Pierce completely drops out of the mix. AI and Kidd never were candidates >>

I don't really think Kobe is dropping. He had his best season statistically. But it depends on whether you are speaking in terms of his ability and output, or his hyped-up reputation. I think he's overhyped by many (i.e., not the next Jordan) but I do think that he and McGrady are without a doubt the best guards in the league.

I would still say Shaq is the best, and the top 5 after him are Dirk, Duncan, KG, Kobe and McGrady. After that you have Kidd, AI, etc.

I think Dirk is moving towards the top among forwards. He doesn't rebound or defend as well as Duncan or KG, but he is a much better scorer than both. I would have said Duncan was the best of the 3 for now, but he has really underwhelmed me so far in the play-offs. He's not even getting 20 ppg. You could say that's a result of having more scorers around him, and trying to get them involved in the offese, but if that were true I would think the Spurs would not be struggling against the Suns. Dirk has really picked it up so far against the Blazers, who are a tough defensive team. So has KG against the Lakers. Dirk is also the youngest and improving at the fastest rate.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2003, 12:39 PM

can't say i disagree with much of what you said..but i do think kobe has dropped from just about even with t-mac to definitely below him IMO. Yes, he is the second best guard, but..i'd make the flip-flop.

Initially, I was impressed with what KG was doing. But for a dominant defender, he spends alot of time on Madsen on defense. And I've been underwhelmed by his offensive performance the past two games

mavsfanforever · 04-30-2003, 01:12 PM

<< im sorry but dirk is much better than Kobe,and Duncan.

Kobe is one of the most overrated players in the history of the NBA,if Dirk or even Steve or Mike had Shaq at their side,they would've easily gotten those 3.
we seen Kobe at the beginnin of the year all alone,he put some amazing stats,33 ppg if im not mistaken,but was almost last at his division.

about duncan,well,he's game is sure is ugly,but the boy is a damn good BBall player.
i just happen to think Dirk is better.

Shaq is better than Dirk,no question about it,and i think Dirk is somewhat tied With Tracy and KG,though in a couple of years he should defenitly be the best,over Shaq,over everybody. >>

I am a kobe hater but I say this "out of all the top 10 guys in the league I do think Kobe may be the best clutch player". He is better in crunch time than TMAC/DIRK/KG/TD/SHAQ.

jayC · 04-30-2003, 02:14 PM

He can hang with all of those guys right know. Every year this guy seems to get stronger in some way. This year its his passing and his ability to mix up his offensive game. He became a great rebounder last year can he possibly be a good defender on just PF's. He is already an adequate defender on powerforward's.

I agree Iverson isn't a great shooter but isn't their something to be said for being a great scorer. He gets to the line what 10 times per game, the guy averages something like 6 assists per game and he leads the league in steals for a guy thats 5 foot ten at best.

Member · 04-30-2003, 04:19 PM

AI can get to the basket as good as anybody in the league

Murphy3 · 04-30-2003, 04:27 PM

sure, there's something to be said for being a great scorer while shooting like crap.
that's why he's a top 12 guy instead of just a top 50 guy

TheKid · 04-30-2003, 05:00 PM

Here we go with that again.. Like I said before, you think AI isn't that good or you think what he does is no big deal but the fact is the guy is amazing. The last game he shot TERRIBLE from field, however when the Hornets made their run it was Iverson who made a couple of clutch shots. Hate him all you want, but I think Shaq said it the best, "Pound for pound, he's the best player in the NBA."

Murphy3 · 04-30-2003, 05:03 PM

saying the guy is somewhere in the top 12 isn't exactly calling him terrible

WayOutWest · 04-30-2003, 05:57 PM

Are Laker fans allowed to comment?

Shaq still occupies the top spot. Though not for the year. Even when he's out of shape and unmotivated (ahem...the reqular season) he's still in the top 5 but when he's doing what he can do he's clearly the best.

Duncan is the second best becasue he's just as good on defense as he is on offense. If I had to start a franchise TD would be my first overall pick because Shaq's only got a year or two left in the tank because of his poor conditioning.

KG is third, same pluses as TD but his inside game is less developed. Don't know which KG people have been watching but he's actually capable of guarding all five positions, they guys he can't guard can't be guarded by anyone else anyway.

Kobe is fourth, ahead of T-Mac for the sole reason of his intensity and drive. Kobe has a drive and desire to win that guys like Bird, Magic, MJ and Russel had, that's hard to measure up to and close to impossible to fake.

T-Mac is fifth becasue he OBVIOUSLY has the tools to be better than Kobe, KG and TD but his easy going mental approach to the game can be irritating. Not surprising since his idol was Penny growing up. People knock Kobe for trying to emulate MJ, he's said so himself, and people want to criticize him for wanting to be like the best ever. Sheesh! But T-Mac's "Penny" approach to the game of B-Ball is not that great an idea. T-Mac has said he admires the effortless approach Penny had for the game.

Dirk is sixth IMO and has moved ahead of guys I had on my list at the start of the season. He's moved ahead of Kidd and Webber not because they've gotten any worse but because Dirk has become one of the more unstoppable offensive forces in the league today, not to mention the last 15 years. Dirk has also shown to be a very good rebounder and has shown mental touhgness against KG last year and against most of the league this year. Dirks defense keeps him out of the top five IMO. Should he improve his D and continue to get mentally tough, an area where KG and TD have been faultering at lately, he could move up my insignificant list.

Epitome22 · 04-30-2003, 07:28 PM

I don't think Murph is being all that unfair here guys. For a guy who puts up that many shots and shoots so poorly percentage wise, top 12 is rather generous. It takes into account everything else he does. He's athletic as all hell, a leader, plays superior defense, pass well, is clutch and can put points on the board. If A.I. was shooting 42% from the field and over 30% from 3 point range like he was 2 years ago, I'd consider him top 10 easily.