President Bush: Flip-Flopper in Chief

[Epitome22]

President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief

September 2, 2004, Updated
Download Poster

From the beginning, George W. Bush has made his own credibility a central issue. On 10/11/00, then-Gov. Bush said: "I think credibility is important.It is going to be important for the president to be credible with Congress, important for the president to be credible with foreign nations." But President Bush's serial flip-flopping raises serious questions about whether Congress and foreign leaders can rely on what he says.

1. Social Security Surplus

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS... "We're going to keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from raiding the Social Security surplus." [President Bush, 3/3/01]

...BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS The New York Times reported that "the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes." [The New York Times, 2/6/02]

2. Patient's Right to Sue

GOVERNOR BUSH VETOES PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "Despite his campaign rhetoric in favor of a patients' bill of rights, Bush fought such a bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995. He... constantly opposed a patient's right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in adverse health effects." [Salon, 2/7/01]

...CANDIDATE BUSH PRAISES TEXAS PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "We're one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage... It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people. And I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patients' bill of rights, Mr. Vice President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas." [Governor Bush, 10/17/00]

...PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION ARGUES AGAINST RIGHT TO SUE "To let two Texas consumers, Juan Davila and Ruby R. Calad, sue their managed-care companies for wrongful denials of medical benefits ‘would be to completely undermine' federal law regulating employee benefits, Assistant Solicitor General James A. Feldman said at oral argument March 23. Moreover, the administration's brief attacked the policy rationale for Texas's law, which is similar to statutes on the books in nine other states." [Washington Post, 4/5/04]

3. Tobacco Buyout

BUSH SUPPORTS CURRENT TOBACCO FARMERS' QUOTA SYSTEM... "They've got the quota system in place -- the allotment system -- and I don't think that needs to be changed." [President Bush, 5/04]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION WILL SUPPORT FEDERAL BUYOUT OF TOBACCO QUOTAS "The administration is open to a buyout." [White House spokeswoman Jeanie Mamo, 6/18/04]

4. North Korea

BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach." [President's Statement, 11/15/02]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM"Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04]

5. Abortion

BUSH SUPPORTS A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE... "Bush said he...favors leaving up to a woman and her doctor the abortion question." [The Nation, 6/15/00, quoting the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 5/78]

...BUSH OPPOSES A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE "I am pro-life." [Governor Bush, 10/3/00]

6. OPEC

BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES... "What I think the president ought to do [when gas prices spike] is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price." [President Bush, 1/26/00]

...BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds." [Miami Herald, 4/1/04]

7. Iraq Funding

BUSH SPOKESMAN DENIES NEED FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR THE REST OF 2004... "We do not anticipate requesting supplemental funding for '04" [White House Budget Director Joshua Bolton, 2/2/04]

...BUSH REQUESTS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR IRAQ FOR 2004 "I am requesting that Congress establish a $25 billion contingency reserve fund for the coming fiscal year to meet all commitments to our troops." [President Bush, Statement by President, 5/5/04]

8. Condoleeza Rice Testimony

BUSH SPOKESMAN SAYS RICE WON'T TESTIFY AS 'A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE'... "Again, this is not her personal preference; this goes back to a matter of principle. There is a separation of powers issue involved here. Historically, White House staffers do not testify before legislative bodies. So it's a matter of principle, not a matter of preference." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 3/9/04]

...BUSH ORDERS RICE TO TESTIFY: "Today I have informed the Commission on Terrorist Attacks Against the United States that my National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, will provide public testimony." [President Bush, 3/30/04]

9. Science

BUSH PLEDGES TO ISSUE REGULATIONS BASED ON SCIENCE..."I think we ought to have high standards set by agencies that rely upon science, not by what may feel good or what sounds good." [then-Governor George W. Bush, 1/15/00]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION REGULATIONS IGNORE SCIENCE "60 leading scientists—including Nobel laureates, leading medical experts, former federal agency directors and university chairs and presidents—issued a statement calling for regulatory and legislative action to restore scientific integrity to federal policymaking. According to the scientists, the Bush administration has, among other abuses, suppressed and distorted scientific analysis from federal agencies, and taken actions that have undermined the quality of scientific advisory panels." [Union of Concerned Scientists, 2/18/04]

10. Ahmed Chalabi

BUSH INVITES CHALABI TO STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS...President Bush also met with Chalabi during his brief trip to Iraq last Thanksgiving [White House Documents 1/20/04, 11/27/03]

...BUSH MILITARY ASSISTS IN RAID OF CHALABI'S HOUSE "U.S. soldiers raided the home of America's one-time ally Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday and seized documents and computers." [Washington Post, 5/20/04]

11. Department of Homeland Security

BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]

12. Weapons of Mass Destruction

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]

13. Free Trade

BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]

14. Osama Bin Laden

BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."[President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]

15. The Environment

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected], Governor Bush will work to...establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]

16. WMD Commission

BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

17. Creation of the 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News, 5/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]

18. Time Extension for 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]

19. One Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony

BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]

20. Gay Marriage

BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]

21. Nation Building

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

22. Saddam/al Qaeda Link

BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

23. U.N. Resolution

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]

24. Involvement in the Palestinian Conflict

BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]

25. Campaign Finance

BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington Post, 3/28/2000]

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold signing ceremony, 03/27/02]

26. 527s

Bush opposes restrictions on 527s: "I also have reservations about the constitutionality of the broad ban on issue advertising [in McCain Feingold], which restrains the speech of a wide variety of groups on issues of public import." [President Bush, 3/27/02]

…Bush says 527s bad for system: "I don't think we ought to have 527s. I can't be more plain about it…I think they're bad for the system. That's why I signed the bill, McCain-Feingold." [President Bush, 8/23/04]

27. Medical Records

Bush says medical records must remain private: "I believe that we must protect…the right of every American to have confidence that his or her personal medical records will remain private." [President Bush, 4/12/01]

…Bush says patients' histories are not confidntial: The Justice Department…asserts that patients "no longer possess a reasonable expectation that their histories will remain completely confidential." [BusinessWeek, 4/30/04]

28. Timelines For Dictators

Bush sets timeline for Saddam: "If Iraq does not accept the terms within a week of passage or fails to disclose required information within 30 days, the resolution authorizes 'all necessary means' to force compliance--in other words, a military attack." [LA Times, 10/3/02]

…Bush says he's against timelines: "I don't think you give timelines to dictators." [President Bush, 8/27/04]

29. The Great Lakes

Bush wants to divert great lakes: "Even though experts say 'diverting any water from the Great Lakes region sets a bad precedent' Bush 'said he wants to talk to Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien about piping water to parched states in the west and southwest.'– [AP, 7/19/01]

Bush says he'll never divert Great Lakes: "We've got to use our resources wisely, like water. It starts with keeping the Great Lakes water in the Great Lakes Basin...My position is clear: We're never going to allow diversion of Great Lakes water." [President Bush, 8/16/04]

30. Winning The War On Terror

Bush claims he can win the war on terror: "One of the interesting things people ask me, now that we're asking questions, is, can you ever win the war on terror? Of course, you can." [President Bush, 4/13/04]

…Bush says war on terror is unwinnable: "I don't think you can win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/30/04]

…Bush says he will win the war on terror: "Make no mistake about it, we are winning and we will win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/31/04]

[Epitome22]

Please re-direct to politics forum. My bad.

[vinnieponte]

i know this thread is in the wrong place, yet my picture says it all!

[subliminal2k3]

[subliminal2k3]

Sorry....first time poster. I just want to say I think this is a great post. Very specific and with actual PROOFS for the claims. A big contrast to most of the conservative posters' posts here. I would like to see their replies to this post. All they do is shouting "Bush is great!" "Bush makes the world safer!" "Bush is great!" "Bush makes everyone richer!" "Bush is great!" "Bush creates a better society!" "Vote Bush! 40 more years!"

Well, tell us, how did exactly Bush make the world safer and everyone richer? Show us some data. Ask people from other countries if they think it's a safer world now compared to 4 years ago. Look around your neighborhood to see if everyone's living a better life now compared to 4 years ago. Is the crime rate higher or lower? Do ur children have more places to go or less places to go? Are the fees higher or lower? Are there more happy families or unhappy families? Draw ur conclusions with actual facts instead of blind party love.

We are adults and we should have the intelligence to draw our own conclusions instead of repeating what the party "leaders" have kept telling us.

[Arne]

Before people forget about this great article. Its always a good read...

[Janett_Reno]

It's all a sham and the American people that honestly care about their country, their jobs and the faith and values of this great country see thru the lies, the saying one thing that is a one liner, then doing something completely opposite will vote and tell this at the next election. No Republican will win the next pres election because the gop will be tied to W, Chains, and Rumsfield. Just go ask the American public what they think of those three men.

You are right and some put party ahead of their country and will say W was a great pres and shoot one liners out trying to make people and the public think that he was but the public knows better. It will take years and years to restore the gop party and W has been awful and he has probably cost Jeb getting the pres anytime. Even future years as they wanted him pres also.

1.Social Security. This is terrible and this is the biggest spending administration ever. I mean EVER. They blow money worse than a gambler in Vegas. When they leave, the public will soon ask where is the Socual Security money and why did W drain it. 1.4 trillion. It is no explaining this.

2. Opec & Oil. W was a failure at everything he did. His dad wanted him to make it big in oil like his dad did. W was about as smart as a rock and everything he seem to do was wrong in the oil business. He was and is and will always be tied to big oil but he had to get into polictics are something as he was a failure in oil. He was put in office by big oil and big business and he wouldn't mind if oil was $4.00 or $5.00 a gallon as this put's more money in his, Chains, pocket. It also helps a very many people that elected him. I advice you to watch a movie called who killed the electric car. You need to read about oil and who controls the oil in this country. The best thing any American could have done, when W was elected was buy Haliburton stock and big oil companies stock.

3. The Iraq funding will never stop under this adm. Plus alot of the money they fund for Iraq just vanishes in thin air and them saying oh well, sorry about that, let's go get more. It has never been an adm to throw money away like this. This tops all big spenders.

The more i read this article it is just toi much to reply to, so i won't. In a nut shell, it is awful and i understand why alot of gop is retirring and or quitting politics. It will take years and years to restore this country on what we had, who we were and all around the world respected us and dreamed to be here and looked up to us. Now we are looked upon as bullies, and very disliked. This adm has drove a wedge in many of our allies and i personally know many Republicans that are furious. I want to make this clear, you are going to have some in here saying everything good and trying to protect this adm but it is all a ploy to vote the next pres Republican and yes i know some Republicans that support a Republican no matter what. Say only good things and would never say a bad word but the majority i know have turned and are very mad and upset.

This adm has turned the gop into where they do not know who they are or where they are going and many gop voters are saying they will vote against this adm, and they are actucally Republican. The next president will have big time hard work ahead of them but i am confident they can and start us down a path to what we use to be and it will take awhile as this adm has wrecked everything we stand for, tried to bankrupt us, and tried to make the world hate us. The good thing is soon we will have a new adm and a new pres and i feel times will change for the better.

Oil and gas prices is a thing of the past and i feel, we will never see them come down to a comfort zone. They have so much pushing it up, untill they have a floor level or always over 2.00 to 2.50 a gallon. The big oil companies need to give Chains and W a raise and much more Haliburton stock as they have done wonders for big oil. If you want to go read and know something else very bad and disturbing, go look at W's buddy that owns Blackwater. Go look what Blackwater was paid in a private bid. It was like 27 million or billon and i need to go look in a no bid contract. This was a guy that was a big donor in the gop and W party and great friends and go read what Blackwater is, who and what they do. Iraq generated alot of money in many way's to certain people and firms and it is ashame.

[FishForLunch]

WOW, It must be nightmare living in the US, we should all emigrate to Utpopias like Canada and France.

[dude1394]

Amazing how the left actually start believe themselves after they say it so long.

[Janett_Reno]

Read the article and go down the line and defend it. You can't. So attack Bill and Hillary or say that it is Jimmy Carter's fault. The American people know better. Good luck in the next election.

[FishForLunch]

If you think Bush was a phony just wait for Hillary, at least the Dems will be have to take it with hands around their ankles.

[Arne]

Originally Posted by FishForLunch

WOW, It must be nightmare living in the US, we should all emigrate to Utpopias like Canada and France.

1 Dollar is worth something like 70 Euro Cents... That's one reason I'm going to make a trip to the USA in November. - I can buy loads of cheap stuff, but it's kind of like only cheap stuff for me, because the Dollar is inflated like hell...

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

Read the article and go down the line and defend it. You can't. So attack Bill and Hillary or say that it is Jimmy Carter's fault. The American people know better. Good luck in the next election.

I've debated and defended these slurs and ridiculous charges multiple times. Go search around the political forum, you don't read and comprehend worth a durn anyway and your BDS is so great that if dubya told you the sky was blue you'd say he was lying but if hillary said it was red you'd defend it. Red, get it?

Just the first one is a great example of the stupidity of that post and writer.

1. Social Security Surplus

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS... "We're going to keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from raiding the Social Security surplus." [President Bush, 3/3/01]

...BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS The New York Times reported that "the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes." [The New York Times, 2/6/02]

I believe that dubya said that unless something catastrophic occurred, in other words he wasn't going to say something was written in stone just in case a war or a huge recession broke out or something like that. Anyone cherry picking that quote as relevant to anything is an idiot. Check the date from the NYSlimes, 5 months from 9/11, it really makes you wonder if the NYTimes isn't the third front after all. It's so childish that it MUST be a liberal saying it.

If I recall someone (can't remember who, must have been chaney or someone) attacked this country and we declared war. I'm sure you recall that the country lost a ton of jobs and economy after that. That's a rhetorical question Janet, I don't really expect you to remember it. Just about every airline declared bankruptcy, jobs/stock market losses were very high.

But OH NO, let's not do anything because we said we wouldn't spend the precious social security ponzi scheme surplus. No matter that we've been spending it for decades.

You really aren't interested in any in-depth discussion janett because it's over your head. Keep posting AP stories, you can handle that.

And of course looking today that statement is false with respect to the outcome. It appears that the budget will get balanced next year, not 2013.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Arne

1 Dollar is worth something like 70 Euro Cents... That's one reason I'm going to make a trip to the USA in November. - I can buy loads of cheap stuff, but it's kind of like only cheap stuff for me, because the Dollar is inflated like hell...

Good for you. I was in france about a year ago and the girl I was riding around with said that when the euro went into effect everyone we po'd because it immediately inflated the price of everything. Maybe she can make it up now.

Where are you heading? Can you not purchase things on amazon.com for dollars? Just curious?

[Jack.Kerr]

Originally Posted by Arne

1 Dollar is worth something like 70 Euro Cents... That's one reason I'm going to make a trip to the USA in November. - I can buy loads of cheap stuff, but it's kind of like only cheap stuff for me, because the Dollar is inflated like hell...

Awww, man.....Arne you're gonna lose all your moral standing with me if you come over here, and support the corrupt regime's economy, which will indirectly support the war in Iraq that you so vehemently oppose.

Can it be that ultimately you're simply going to do what you think is in your best interests and to your own personal advantage, morality be damned? That puts you on a relative moral plane with President Bush, at least by your analysis of him.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

Awww, man.....Arne you're gonna lose all your moral standing with me if you come over here, and support the corrupt regime's economy, which will indirectly support the war in Iraq that you so vehemently oppose.

Can it be that ultimately you're simply going to do what you think is in your best interests and to your own personal advantage, morality be damned? That puts you on a relative moral plane with President Bush, at least by your analysis of him.

Good point Jack...Any european coming over to vacation in America is a rank hypocrite.

[Arne]

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

Awww, man.....Arne you're gonna lose all your moral standing with me if you come over here, and support the corrupt regime's economy, which will indirectly support the war in Iraq that you so vehemently oppose.

Can it be that ultimately you're simply going to do what you think is in your best interests and to your own personal advantage, morality be damned? That puts you on a relative moral plane with President Bush, at least by your analysis of him.

Good point... But the money that is spend for the war in Iraq doesn`t come from your own economy. I guess you forgot, but your government has to borough that money from China and other countries...

I'm just enjoying myself, trying to hurt nobody, but unfortunately that's not what Georgie is doing.

[Jack.Kerr]

Originally Posted by Arne

Good point... But the money that is spend for the war in Iraq doesn`t come from your own economy. I guess you forgot, but your government has to borough that money from China and other countries...

I'm just enjoying myself, trying to hurt nobody, but unfortunately that's not what Georgie is doing.

Well, enjoy yourself while you can. It may not be so fun to gloat when Euro-economies begin to stagnate because the Euro is too strong.

If you go to NYC, be sure to visit that big hole in the ground down in Lower Manhattan. It's just beginning to be re-developed, but the sheer scale of it might give you the beginning of a glimmer of a hint of understanding about why Americans were willing to go to war and sacrifice lives and capital while Europeans mostly sit back like hyenas waiting for spoils.

Also, I hope you feel some moral obligation to go drop some serious coin down in New Orleans, which needs all the help it can get after the Bush administration conspired against Mother Nature before Katrina and against New Orleansians afterwards. Drink big, and tip bigger and just call it humanitarian aid. Time to put your Euro where your mouth has been.

[Arne]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Good for you. I was in france about a year ago and the girl I was riding around with said that when the euro went into effect everyone we po'd because it immediately inflated the price of everything. Maybe she can make it up now.

Where are you heading? Can you not purchase things on amazon.com for dollars? Just curious?

When the Euro went into effect it was worth something like 85 Dollar Cents, so times have kind of changed. Wages have gone up and stuff like that. Problem is that we have a social system that is leading to a huge bureaucracy, which takes away much of our money. Especially in France, they are living in a country where riots started when Chirac tried to fight youth unemployment by loosening job security for people who get their first job after school.

It's not the currency that is to blame in my opinion but rather the lack of flexibility and the overtaxing or rather the way in which the money returns to the people after they've been taxed. Bottomline: People don't feel like hey earn more, since taxes go up every year.

As to Amazon.com: The shipping is costly, but it would be okay if I bought lots of things and got them into one shipement

As to my vacation: I'm going to visit a friend who goes to college somewhere near Illinois. We're gonna be in Chicago for a couple of days, then one week in San Francisco, one in New York and afterwards I'm gonna stay in chicago for a couple of weeks.

I'm really looking forward to be there. It's gonna be a great experience I guess. Have you been to one of these places recently? What can you recommend?

Oh and I Might watch the Knicks getting humiliated by the Suns...:-)

[Arne]

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

Well, enjoy yourself while you can. It may not be so fun to gloat when Euro-economies begin to stagnate because the Euro is too strong.

If you go to NYC, be sure to visit that big hole in the ground down in Lower Manhattan. It's just beginning to be re-developed, but the sheer scale of it might give you the beginning of a glimmer of a hint of understanding about why Americans were willing to go to war and sacrifice lives and capital while Europeans mostly sit back like hyenas waiting for spoils.

Also, I hope you feel some moral obligation to go drop some serious coin down in New Orleans, which needs all the help it can get after the Bush administration conspired against Mother Nature before Katrina and against New Orleansians afterwards. Drink big, and tip bigger and just call it humanitarian aid. Time to put your Euro where your mouth has been.

Germany is the world leader in export, but most of the stuff goes to Europe anyways... So don't know whether I will feel it so soon...

Yeah I know what ground zero looks like. Still, the world would be better off if America had taken the advice of most European nations and hadn't messed up Iraq... I'm not going o visit New Orleans, but why should drop some serios coin there? My sister has been to Nigeria for half a year. - You don't even know how bad hings can be. Imagine living in a town where garbage is thrown on the streets and everything smells like burned garbage, because people feel cold at night and burn their garbage because they can't afford proper firewood. Imagine people who are desperate enough to drink water that I wouldn't even want to get in contact with. Try to imagine a place were at least one third of the population has malaria. - My sister having been one of them...

The whole continent of Africa has seen 280 billion dollars in developement aid during the last couple of years. Now imagine that that's less than a third of the money that has been spend on some silly and useless war on terror that can never be won.

[Janett_Reno]

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

If you go to NYC, be sure to visit that big hole in the ground down in Lower Manhattan. It's just beginning to be re-developed, but the sheer scale of it might give you the beginning of a glimmer of a hint of understanding about why Americans were willing to go to war and sacrifice lives and capital while Europeans mostly sit back like hyenas waiting for spoils.

Arne again, Jack is making up stuff. Using one liners that are not true. What Jack is bascially saying, is the usa went to war in Iraq because of Sadam attacking us on 9/11. This is falsehood. Sadam and Iraq did not attack us on 9/11. It was Bin Laden and most all suicide bombers was from Saudi Arabia. The country we are in the oil bed with and our good friend. It was not even any Al Queda in Iraq when Sadam was in power as they was scarred to death of him.

So his above statement is totally false. Sadam and Bin laden hated each other. A Republican that has been in many presidents administration said we went to Iraq because of oil(Allen Greenspan). These people that say we attacked Iraq because of 9/11 is living in the stone age and doesn't even know who attacked us on 9/11. It was Bin Laden, Al Queda and the suicide bombers of Saudi Arabia. You can't change history or rewrite it the way you want it told. Let's be truthful because if you are not truthful, then people see this and don't believe anything you say.

Arne, if you want to see who attacked us on 9/11 then you might read this http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...005.DTL&nl=fix and why it is hard for this adm and our country is we are in bed with Saudi Arabia but Laden knew this and this is why he got Saudi's to do this. He want's a muslim, jewish, christian war world wide. If we would have went after Laden, then most all European countries would have helped us and backed us but the neocons wanted to go into Iraq so badly, that they did so and sold the American public on falsehood. This adm has always been about falsehood and arne watch the next elections and you will see alot less Republicans because of this adm.

[Janett_Reno]

Again what arne says is true. The sad thing arne is this adm won't answer questions on why, who and will not admit making any mistakes but keeps trying to make two wrongs right and they keep getting us in more trouble. They have neglected everything America stands for and again if dude and jack say we stand for freedom and that is why we attacked Iraq, again for oil? It had not one thing to do with 9/11. Notice how people are dropping out of this adm.

Also arne, the Kurds helped us go in and supported us because of the bad things Sadam did to them. They are our allies and so was turkey. Sometimes daily and weekly, Turkey claims the Kurds are comming into Turkey killing people and when Turkey want's to go get them, we say no, don't cross that Iraq line. Turkey is putting full page ads on the front page of their newspapers, showing a dead person, claiming a Kurd did this and the Americans won't let them defend themself.

I do not know why the Kurds and Turkey do not like each other and what is going on there. I do know that in Turkey the slogans to Americans are not good now and this is suppose to be our allies. See this adm problem and trouble? They just keep digging and digging us in a deeper hole. No one wins a war on religion, no one wins a war of politics. It is stuff like the Kurd/Turkey conflict daily and is no answers for it. How can we police the whole middle east when we should be after Bin laden.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Arne

Now imagine that that's less than a third of the money that has been spend on some silly and useless war on terror that can never be won.

Well maybe not that war, but we can win the war with Al Queda in Iraq. We might even be able to win the war with Al Queda in Afghanistan if Nato doesn't decide to break treaty and abandon their allies.

The germans have been stalwart there, but democracies have a tough time sustaining long conflict, that is what the islamists are counting on. If they get a democrat in office here, they will consider that a victory.

[Janett_Reno]

It was no Al Queda in Iraq untill we invaded and a Democrat is going to be the next president. It is even a woman. The first woman president ever in the USA. A milestone and her name is Hillary Clinton.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

It was no Al Queda in Iraq untill we invaded and a Democrat is going to be the next president. It is even a woman. The first woman president ever in the USA. A milestone and her name is Hillary Clinton.

Well actually not true, there were Al Queda in iraq, just not in the numbers that there "were"...Were is a good description as well. Saddam was an upfront supporter of terrorism.

But certainly once we overthrew Saddam, Al Queda tried to defeat us in Iraq, if the democrats had had their way they would have been successful. A lesson to be re-learned.

[FishForLunch]

Yes we know Janett, Hillary is running for President, thanks for the daily remainder

[Usually Lurkin]

[Janett_Reno]

Iraq wasn't where Laden was. We have not caught Laden and we need to. Sadam wasn't behind 9/11 or the Iraqi people wasn't. All that is false. It was Bin Laden, Al Queda and the majority of the bombers from Saudi that was responsible for 9/11 and the public and the European nations stood with us on this but we chose to go into Iraq and very few agreed with us on this.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

Iraq wasn't where Laden was. We have not caught Laden and we need to. Sadam wasn't behind 9/11 or the Iraqi people wasn't. All that is false. It was Bin Laden, Al Queda and the majority of the bombers from Saudi that was responsible for 9/11 and the public and the European nations stood with us on this but we chose to go into Iraq and very few agreed with us on this.

True Iraq was not where Bin Laden was, but Al Queda was in Iraq. Sadam was not behind 9/11, no one ever said he was, keep up will ya, your hatred clouds your memory.

Agreed it was Bin Laden, Al Queda that was responsible for 9/11. And Al Queda was in Iraq but again that wasn't why the majority of our government went into Iraq. Nor was it why all of the people that COULD vote at the time that is running for president from the Democrat side voted TO invade Iraq.

Actually quite a few DID agree with us, in fact there was a unanimous UN resolution that said that unless Iraq gave a full and fair accounting of their WMD plans, that they would face the dreaded "dire" consequences.

I am glad that you are finally saying "us" as in the representative government of the US. Dubya laid out his reasons and the congress overwhelmingly agreed with him..All Saddam had to do to avoid getting hung was to come clean, he didn't.

But you obfuscate the issue. We are in there and we are engaged with Al Queda. If the democrats had their way we would have already lost to Al Queda. Al Queda would be on the rise in the world versus having been shown to be the monsters that they are.

All Al Queda has to do is to blow up some innocent civilians and the democrats run and hide and say...sory Iraqi's, we're going to run and hide again while you get slaughtered, just like we did last time. Pathetic.

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by Arne

Germany is the world leader in export, but most of the stuff goes to Europe anyways... So don't know whether I will feel it so soon...
.

Yeah, if you divided the US up (say into 50 states or something) and called THAT international trade, suddenly the US trade stats would look a bit different, wouldn't they?

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by dude1394

True Iraq was not where Bin Laden was, but Al Queda was in Iraq. ....

Really?

[Arne]

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

Yeah, if you divided the US up (say into 50 states or something) and called THAT international trade, suddenly the US trade stats would look a bit different, wouldn't they?

Do you even know what I was talking about?

America has a weak Dollar, which is kind of great if you want to export things outside the US. Germany has a very strong Euro which would be bad if we wanted to export outside the EU. Fortunately we don't export much outside the EU.

So in the end I was only saying that Germans don't suffer that much from the strong Euro, because even though we export a lot, we don't do it outside the EU that much.

I don't care how much you guys export or not, you know... But even if you divided the US into 50 and called that international trade, do you really think that one state would export more than Germany? because you couldn't just count all the exports nation-wide, because the nation would be divided, wouldn't it? and if you wanted to do that then you would've to compare that statistic with all the EU exports of all the EU nations summed up, which would be pretty devastating, wouldn't it?

[mcsluggo]

I have to admit to not understanding much of your post....

But MY point, (not intended to be a particularly deep one) was that Germany's trade statistics are perhaps not the best comparison to US trade statistics... better comparison would be EU (excluding intra-eu trade), because trade from Geramny to Belgium (under the umbrella of the Euro) is much more comprable to trade between New York and Conneticut (under the umbrella of the Dollar) than NY with China.

As I said, not a deep point... nor was there any deeper editorial "wink wink".

[mcsluggo]

But I am MUCH more interested in hearing about the fact that Al Qada was in Iraq before the US invasion... THAT would be a fascinating development.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

But I am MUCH more interested in hearing about the fact that Al Qada was in Iraq before the US invasion... THAT would be a fascinating development.

Per Christopher Hitchens.
http://www.slate.com/id/2172152/

The founder of al-Qaida in Mesopotamia was Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who we can now gratefully describe as "the late." The first thing to notice about him is that he was in Iraq before we were. The second thing to notice is that he fled to Iraq only because he, and many others like him, had been driven out of Afghanistan. Thus, by the logic of those who say that Afghanistan is the "real" war, he would have been better left as he was. Without the overthrow of the Taliban, he and his collaborators would not have moved to take advantage of the next failed/rogue state. I hope you can spot the simple error of reasoning that is involved in this belief. It also involves the defeatist suggestion—which was very salient in the opposition to the intervention in Afghanistan—that it's pointless to try to crush such people because "others will spring up in their place." Those who take this view should have the courage to stand by it and not invent a straw-man argument.

[dude1394]

Speaking of Hitchens...he cracks me up.
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2007/10...on-giving.html

Madison, home of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, starts off loving the surly atheist they've brought in, but then — who could have imagined? — he gives them a hard time:

Responding to a question from an audience member on what he said was the futility of killing Muslims in Iraq to end extremism, Hitchens parodied:

But stop laughing at the Madisonians for getting theirs. Here's what Hitchens thinks of your Heaven:

He also told the crowd that heaven would be comparable to North Korea, as they both embody a totalitarianism of eternal gratitude.

Hitchens pointed to the “horrific pointlessness and misery” of having to thank a leader for everything when the leader was never asked for in the first place — which he said is intrinsic to both the concept of heaven and in North Korea.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Per Christopher Hitchens.
http://www.slate.com/id/2172152/
The founder of al-Qaida in Mesopotamia was Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who we can now gratefully describe as "the late." The first thing to notice about him is that he was in Iraq before we were. The second thing to notice is that he fled to Iraq only because he, and many others like him, had been driven out of Afghanistan. Thus, by the logic of those who say that Afghanistan is the "real" war, he would have been better left as he was. Without the overthrow of the Taliban, he and his collaborators would not have moved to take advantage of the next failed/rogue state. I hope you can spot the simple error of reasoning that is involved in this belief. It also involves the defeatist suggestion—which was very salient in the opposition to the intervention in Afghanistan—that it's pointless to try to crush such people because "others will spring up in their place." Those who take this view should have the courage to stand by it and not invent a straw-man argument.

that is at best conjecture, and more accucrately revisionist history in an attempt to lend justification to the invasion of iraq as a crucial element in the war on terrorists.

IF (and that is a big if, for there is no way of truly knowing) al-zarqawi was actually in iraq before the us invasion, all the reports have him in the northern parts of iraq, working with ansar al-islam in- guess where?- the portion of iraq that was out of the control of hussein.

so if he was actually in iraq, he was not working hand in hand, or in any manner, with hussein.

any attempt to tie hussein to al queda before the us invasion of iraq is falacious. it simply did not exist.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

that is at best conjecture, and more accucrately revisionist history in an attempt to lend justification to the invasion of iraq as a crucial element in the war on terrorists.

IF (and that is a big if, for there is no way of truly knowing) al-zarqawi was actually in iraq before the us invasion, all the reports have him in the northern parts of iraq, working with ansar al-islam in- guess where?- the portion of iraq that was out of the control of hussein.

so if he was actually in iraq, he was not working hand in hand, or in any manner, with hussein.

any attempt to tie hussein to al queda before the us invasion of iraq is falacious. it simply did not exist.

Hmmm..so he may not have been there but if he WAS there then he was in the north and not really a part of Al Queda? Even though he was the head al queda in iraq. I mean really mavie. As far as suggesting that he was working "with" hussein I'm not making it, nor has anyone else, not even dubya. Just that saddam was a supporter of terrorism throughout the world and against the US. There were many documented reasons for taking out saddam, but the statement by the left that Al Queda was NOT in Iraq before we entered is false.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Hmmm..so he may not have been there but if he WAS there then he was in the north and not really a part of Al Queda? Even though he was the head al queda in iraq. I mean really mavie. As far as suggesting that he was working "with" hussein I'm not making it, nor has anyone else, not even dubya. Just that saddam was a supporter of terrorism throughout the world and against the US. There were many documented reasons for taking out saddam, but the statement by the left that Al Queda was NOT in Iraq before we entered is false.

there was no "al queda in iraq" organization until after the invasion. in fact, it didn't exist for a year after the invasion.

still waiting for the support for the claim "saddam was a supporter of terrorism throughout the world".......

[dude1394]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ir...ade/sect5.html

raq is one of seven countries that have been designated by the Secretary of State as state sponsors of international terrorism. UNSCR 687 prohibits Saddam Hussein from committing or supporting terrorism, or allowing terrorist organizations to operate in Iraq. Saddam continues to violate these UNSCR provisions.

* In 1993, the Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) directed and pursued an attempt to assassinate, through the use of a powerful car bomb, former U.S. President George Bush and the Emir of Kuwait. Kuwaiti authorities thwarted the terrorist plot and arrested 16 suspects, led by two Iraqi nationals.

* Iraq shelters terrorist groups including the Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization (MKO), which has used terrorist violence against Iran and in the 1970s was responsible for killing several U.S. military personnel and U.S. civilians.

* Iraq shelters several prominent Palestinian terrorist organizations in Baghdad, including the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF), which is known for aerial attacks against Israel and is headed by Abu Abbas, who carried out the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro and murdered U.S. citizen Leon Klinghoffer.

* Iraq shelters the Abu Nidal Organization, an international terrorist organization that has carried out terrorist attacks in twenty countries, killing or injuring almost 900 people. Targets have included the United States and several other Western nations. Each of these groups have offices in Baghdad and receive training, logistical assistance, and financial aid from the government of Iraq.

* In April 2002, Saddam Hussein increased from $10,000 to $25,000 the money offered to families of Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers. The rules for rewarding suicide/homicide bombers are strict and insist that only someone who blows himself up with a belt of explosives gets the full payment. Payments are made on a strict scale, with different amounts for wounds, disablement, death as a "martyr" and $25,000 for a suicide bomber. Mahmoud Besharat, a representative on the West Bank who is handing out to families the money from Saddam, said, "You would have to ask President Saddam why he is being so generous. But he is a revolutionary and he wants this distinguished struggle, the intifada, to continue."

* Former Iraqi military officers have described a highly secret terrorist training facility in Iraq known as Salman Pak, where both Iraqis and non-Iraqi Arabs receive training on hijacking planes and trains, planting explosives in cities, sabotage, and assassinations.