Raef LaFrentz

[madape]

You shouldn't have given up on the man so easily coach Nelson! The man can still play:

As of today he's averaging 10 points, 7 boards and 2 blocks in less than 25 minutes. That's better-than Dampier-like production.. WITH shotblocking. And he looks like he's hitting his stride with back to back double digit rebound games.

I'll be rooting for LaFrentz to make a comeback and to make fools of his distractors. Is it too early to cast my all-star ballot?

[Dooby]

Pretty much sums it up. J/K. (orig. post was a blank screen, which was funny).

I knew this would be your point ahead of time. Averaging 10/7. Not bad. Certainly comperable to Damp's 9/8. Same can be said for Damp. but let's see him do it for a season.

[V2M]

Damp's effort can't just be measured in points, rebounds and blocks. He's a big defensive presence inside which takes away several easy layups and dunks for our opponents and forces them to take some tough jumpers from the perimeter. That fact never shows up on a scoresheet but is well acknowledged by coaches and players (both teammates & opponents).

Raef's a good player when healthy and could do many things that Damp can't. But I don't believe, Raef would be a better choice for the Mavs.

[Chiwas]

Why to try a change when things are working so well?

Though it's good to see Raef finally playing good hoops.

[jayC]

He has never averaged 8 rebounds in his life. He is a different type of player than Damp. Damp is a more physical player then Raef. That being said I too will root for Raef.

[EricaLubarsky]

Raef is a nice player, but he did nothing intangible. He camped in the high post where his weak side shot blocking was not used and on offense he was always used to get the center out of the middle. It was a boon for other guys offensively, but it was just a mad scheme by Nelson. I'm not sure that his numbers would be that helpful to us anyway. We'll see how his numbers pan out over a season. Right now, he's onlay played 5 games. Good ones, but only five.

[kg_veteran]

In a related note, Antoine Walker is pumping in 23 and 9 for the Hawks right now. And I wouldn't want him back, either.

Seriously, I liked Raef. As a backup PF/C, he'd have probably been okay. But as a starting center? I'll pass.

[poohrichardson]

I'll take the center that completely owned Shaq last time they played over an injury-riddled power forward playing out of position. I loved Raef while he was still here, but Dampier is a much more useful player to the Mavs right now. Interior toughness and rebounding are two things that Raef didn't bring us.

[Chiwas]

Second thoughts after tonight's loss?

[V2M]

Originally posted by: Chiwas
Second thoughts after tonight's loss?

Not really. I just wish Nellie used DJ last night (may be in place of Booth & Hendu). He's long, quick and athletic. He could have stopped some of those easy layups & dunks they got.

[madape]

Raef is not on the 2005 all-star ballot. booooooooooooooooooo!

[kingrex]

Originally posted by: madape
Raef is not on the 2005 all-star ballot. booooooooooooooooooo!

Funny, but are you really surprised? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[dude1394]

You can write him in like I did 'ape. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[dude1394]

I liked Raef and I like Damp. All I've ever thought the mavs needed was a serviceable center. Either would have been fine.

[dude1394]

Stats.. Raef/Damp

PPG - 10.0/8.1
RPG - 7.2/6.9
SPG - 1.1/0.3
BPG - 1.7/1.0
FG% - .52/.47
FT% - .6/.5
3P% - .42/.00
MPG - 25.4/25.8

[Rod1975]

Originally posted by: poohrichardson
I'll take the center that completely owned Shaq last time they played over an injury-riddled power forward playing out of position. I loved Raef while he was still here, but Dampier is a much more useful player to the Mavs right now. Interior toughness and rebounding are two things that Raef didn't bring us.

Raef is averaging more blocks,steals and rebounds than Dampier right now, so it sounds like he's plenty tough inside. But then again the FG% against is'nt a stat that I'm aware is kept in the NBA, like batting average against a pitcher is kept in MLB. And if it was, Dampier could possibly be as good or better than Raef. But I've been watching Raef play on league pass, and when he gets PT, he's been better than Damp. And I'm only speaking defensively here. We all know Raef has always been better on the offensive end than on the defensive end.
I've said all along that the jury is still out on Raef, he could turn out to be an above average player.

[#41]

We didn't need no other 7footer who can't play D and waits at the 3pointline...

[sike]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
In a related note, Antoine Walker is pumping in 23 and 9 for the Hawks right now. And I wouldn't want him back, either.

Seriously, I liked Raef. As a backup PF/C, he'd have probably been okay. But as a starting center? I'll pass.

discussion over.

[grndmstr_c]

I haven't seen Raef play this year, but a few stats on him are worth noting: First, his net +/- is a -13.2. Second, the biggest culprit in that poor +/- is the effect he apparently has on the defense. With him off the court the C's are allowing 99.2 points per 100 posessions. With him on the court that figure climbs to 108.3 pp100. Third, regardless of how many rebounds he's grabbing, the C's, a slightly above average rebounding team with him on the bench (50.6%), turn into a very poor rebounding team with him on the court (47.5%). FWIW, Dampier's impact for the Mavs on the boards is exactly the opposite, as they go from being a very poor rebounding team without him (47.1%), to being a good rebounding team with him (51.3%).

[vinnieponte]

boston is 4 & 8, thats all I have to say

[rakesh.s]

raef is a good guy...he is fitting in well with the system in boston..

let's face it he just couldn't fit into nellie's system...he was expected to anchor the middle and he isn't that player..he rebounds and blocks shots from the power forward position

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: dude1394
I liked Raef and I like Damp. All I've ever thought the mavs needed was a serviceable center. Either would have been fine.

Except Raef is playing power forward for Boston. Mark Blount is the starting center.

Plus just like the Potato, Raef is playing for a TERRIBLE team. It's easier to get good stats on a bad team than a good team.

Also just like the Potato, Raef ain't too bright. He never did understand the plays very well which is why he had to be camped out at the 3 point line.

[sike]

It's easier to get good stats on a bad team than a good team.

this point needs to be made more often...

[raefformvp]

He never did understand the plays very well which is why he had to be camped out at the 3 point line.

From everything I read while Raef was here, I agree with your point that he didn't understand the plays well. However, the reason he camped out at the 3 point line was Nellie's doing, not Raef's. Nellie and his gimmicky defense had Raef playing outside in order to draw the opposing teams' centers out to guard him. He never had success here because Nellie didn't use him properly. I'm glad to see he is getting playing time at the power forward in Boston and putting up better numbers. Can't wait to see him 12/28. Should be fun!

[sike]

the reason he camped out at the 3 point line was Nellie's doing, not Raef's.

Raef admitted that he was more comfortable playing closer to the basket but that Nellie liked to use him on the perimeter.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: sike

Raef admitted that he was more comfortable playing closer to the basket but that Nellie liked to use him on the perimeter.

Nellie liked using him on the perimeter because Raef kept blowing the plays inside. Nellie would have played him inside if he was capable of doing so but Raef couldn't do the job. So Nellie was forced to get him out of the middle where his screwups wouldn't hurt the team as much.

[dude1394]

Bull honkey. Nellie put him out there because the theory was to draw shaq out and give lanes to post up van excel or someone else. THAT theory has been shot straight to heck.

[dude1394]

So what is this efficiency ranking anyway? Dirk 3rd, Raef 16th. Worth anything???

[dude1394]

A few more notes. It looks like RealGM.com has updated their rankings finally.

Player/Ranking/SalaryRanking
Dirk....5....27
Damp..125...59
Raef.......61...47
Howard..80..330 (wow what a steal)

[grndmstr_c]

Howard..80..330 (wow what a steal)

Any time you can get a starter out of a late first rounder, you've done something very right by your team.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: dude1394
Bull honkey. Nellie put him out there because the theory was to draw shaq out and give lanes to post up van excel or someone else. THAT theory has been shot straight to heck.

Yeah baby - we played Shaq FOUR times that year. So Raef was on the three point line to draw out WHO the rest of the time?

He was out on the 3 point line because he was out of position on offense all the time. Being out of position in the paint meant the Mavs had no lane to drive because Raef was in the way. So Nellie moved his ass out of the way. In a similar fashion, the Potato kept screwing up the plays. But we didn't have the option to bench Raef's ass like we did the Potato. So Nellie took the lemon (Raef) and made lemonade (parked Raef on the 3 point line).

[dude1394]

No max...that was the stated strategy that cubes/nellie were promoting, in many interviews. I'm not making it up. I'm also not saying that raef was the sharpest tack in the drawer, but him being on the 3-pt line was by design from the get-go.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: dude1394
No max...that was the stated strategy that cubes/nellie were promoting, in many interviews. I'm not making it up. I'm also not saying that raef was the sharpest tack in the drawer, but him being on the 3-pt line was by design from the get-go.

And did you believe Nellie when he said Anstey was the best running big man in the draft? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Just because Nellie said the reason that Raef was outside was for one reason doesn't mean that there wasn't another more compelling reason that was really behind it. And the incident with Fortson screwing up the plays and getting benched would be a reason to believe that Nellie can recognize early who can handle the offense. And Raef couldn't handle the complicated sets of Nellie's offense and so was moved out of the way. I think the story was just a "little lie" to allow Raef to keep his confidence. I also think Nellie hoped to move him back inside and expected to move him back but was unable because Raef was not able to pick up the nuances of the offense. When we traded for Raef and the strategy was implimentated, Raef shot a career high 3.5 3's per game and hit a career low 30.5% on them. Not good. The next year was worse, Raef only shot 1.7 3's per game (lowest in his career) and only played 23.3 minutes per game (lowest in his career).

To me my explanation fits the facts a little more than the Mad Scientist Nellie sticking with a non-working experiment. But this is an internet message board and fans disagree all the time.

[dude1394]

Okay...If you don't believe the publicly stated positions of nellie, cuban and pretty much the whole organization then there isn't much to discuss. Since we can both make up anything we want.

In my opinion the mavs thought that raef would never recover from his knee problems and also turned out to be a poor clog in the lane. They believe they found a way to move his contract and took it.

Now...my only agreement with that continues to be that maybe raef will never recover from those knee problems, if that turns out to be true, I think the decision will be vindicated. If raef's health is taken out of the equation, I think the moves made last year were a total cluster. I know that Steve Nash agrees with me, and I would bet that Dirk/Fin/Shawn/Raef/NVE would agree.

They tore down a 60 win team for Walker/Jamison.... As I still contend Raef was enough center and would have been fine.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: dude1394
Okay...If you don't believe the publicly stated positions of nellie, cuban and pretty much the whole organization then there isn't much to discuss. Since we can both make up anything we want.

Well since Nellie doesn't have a good track record of honesty, I am suprised that you believe him so easily. But I agree that there isn't much to discuss on this issue since you aren't going to look beyond the press releases.

As I still contend Raef was enough center and would have been fine.

You are quite mistaken on this point. Raef was a horrible center for us. Raef is a power forward (he has repeatedly said so) and can only play center for a bad team like Denver. Now he is playing power forward for a bad team and is putting up decent numbers.

[dude1394]

Starting at Power forward for the San Antonio Spurs...Tim Duncan...



The point being Raef is everybit as much a center as Olowakandi or Rasho....

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: dude1394
Starting at Power forward for the San Antonio Spurs...Tim Duncan...



The point being Raef is everybit as much a center as Olowakandi or Rasho....

What the heck does this mean? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

Yeah Raef could be a center next to Duncan, but almost any seven footer could. What does that have to do with the Mavs? Dirk isn't the prototype power forward like Duncan so Dirk needs the power player at center. Raef wasn't it.

[dude1394]

My point was that you said..

"Raef is a power forward (he has repeatedly said so) and can only play center for a bad team like Denver".

But he's just as good a center as the two I mentioned, not bad teams at all. Either he can/cannot play center. You think he can't because I guess dirk is a pansy, unlike duncan/kg. I disagree.

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: dude1394
My point was that you said..

"Raef is a power forward (he has repeatedly said so) and can only play center for a bad team like Denver".

But he's just as good a center as the two I mentioned, not bad teams at all. Either he can/cannot play center. You think he can't because I guess dirk is a pansy, unlike duncan/kg. I disagree.

OK - Raef could play center for ONE good team. But anyone would look good next to Duncan. Wait, I changed my mind - Pop would KILL the dumb as a box of hammers Raef after a month. So Raef wouldn't be able to play for the Spurs either.

But neither Candi-ass or Rasho would do anything other than spare us to death if they were Mavs. Neither would be a complementary power player to Dirk.

And I never said Dirk was a pansy. I merely said that Dirk isn't a prototype power forward like Duncan. He doesn't have the footwork of Duncan, he doesn't have the low post game of Duncan (you know, that PROTOTYPE power forward game). Since when is it an insult to say that someone is different? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

[dude1394]

I know you didn't say dirk was a pansy, but you seem to think he needs some sort of gorilla in there with him, I don't. I think dirk would be just as fine with nesterovic/candiman as duncan/kg is.

I also think he was just fine with Raef, as you can tell from my postings. I do NOT think that a big thug center is needed. Dirks BEST season was with Raef on the team, his best. The TEAMS best season was with Raef on the team.

I guess he sucked them to death.