What's wrong?

[vinnieponte]

Ok I'm adding a thread to voice opionions on what is "currently" wrong. There is currently 4 or 5 threads devoted to firing Nellie, but we also need to look at the team as a whole. If you look at our record we have only beat 1 "playoff" worthy team. We have won against half way decent teams and when we play seattle, detroit, san antonio, phoenix, etc etc we loose. Even if we make it to the playoffs how can we get past the first round against teams we can't even beat in the regular season? So here is the place to sound off what needs to happen, and what we need. Any thoughts????????

[vinnieponte]

Here is my current issue:

First: Waiting for our "point guard" situation to be resolved while Dirk is in his prime and playing the best out of his whole nba career! Are we supposed to switch point guards every night untill the season is over, are we supposed to wait 2-3 years for Harris to develop when it will be too late and Dirk wont be shooting like he used to? We don't have time to sit around untill the offseason 05 for Cuban to make a trade, it needs to happen now.

[TwoDeep3]

Point guard play.

That is where I start.

If letting Nash go was a mistake, then finding a way to get Kidd may be the correction to that mistake.

I understand his history of injury and his age. I also know he has salary baggae which will be difficult to overcome.

But this team needs someone to run the offense.

Kidd is as close to the answer as anyone available.

Finley needs to get back in shape and start hitting his shots. He was pitiful at times last night. I question putting the game in his hands when he hoisted up a three that fell short. If he had been back for a week or so I might have gone to him. But his first game back, you just have to wonder if he was running on no legs at that point.

Stackhouse needs to produce or be included in some kind of trade. The guy can't hit a lay-up.

Somewhere the team needs to find a threat other than Dirk. Be it Finley or whomever. Dirk is seeing too much defense when the game is on the line. The ball is being forced out of his hands. Someone has to make the other team pay.

While this is not a very popular opinion, I would bring in Kidd and see what a real point guard can do.

Anbd it wouldn't hurt Pup Harris any either.

My opinion.

[jibikao]

Originally posted by: TwoDeep3
Point guard play.

That is where I start.

If letting Nash go was a mistake, then finding a way to get Kidd may be the correction to that mistake.

I understand his history of injury and his age. I also know he has salary baggae which will be difficult to overcome.

But this team needs someone to run the offense.

Kidd is as close to the answer as anyone available.

Finley needs to get back in shape and start hitting his shots. He was pitiful at times last night. I question putting the game in his hands when he hoisted up a three that fell short. If he had been back for a week or so I might have gone to him. But his first game back, you just have to wonder if he was running on no legs at that point.

Stackhouse needs to produce or be included in some kind of trade. The guy can't hit a lay-up.

Somewhere the team needs to find a threat other than Dirk. Be it Finley or whomever. Dirk is seeing too much defense when the game is on the line. The ball is being forced out of his hands. Someone has to make the other team pay.

While this is not a very popular opinion, I would bring in Kidd and see what a real point guard can do.

Anbd it wouldn't hurt Pup Harris any either.

My opinion.

I do agree with what you said this time. Since firing Nelson is not likely to happen in the near future, we might as well find other solutions.

First, PG problem has to be solved and I do think Kidd is the best choice we have now. Why? Mavs has all kinds of weapons. We have defense player, offense player, go-to guy player but we have no OFFENSE FLOW...no PG who can reduce turnovers and make sure the flow of the game is in favor of his. Kidd is a good choice even though he is old and likely to get injured.

Kidd's is not a very good shooter but we DO NOT need another shooter. Please. We have enough shooters. We just need somebody who can make right passing decisions in the end. Dirk is a PF and he already receives enough defense from other teams. If Kidd is handling the ball, the other team will have to pay attention to him as well. So far besides Dirk, no opponent cares to double team anybody else. Kidd will pose a threat to other teams as long as he is on the court. He will make the right pass to Howard, Daniel, Finely and Stack.

I can't believe I am backing up Kidd. I used to hate him because I think he is over-rated. But at this point, Kidd will definitely do a better job than the 3-4 PG we have since we don't have Nash.

Jimmy

[vinnieponte]

so far you both have the the nail on the head, we have no offensive flow, and its lacking without nash, and although we have some "decent" pg's and one 2-3 year project pg, we need a answer this year, not next or the year after!

[dude1394]

PG play is what's wrong and the offense in general. What's right... Rebounding and defense and dirk...

So if the PG play and the offense improves (which it should) we should be pretty salty come playoff time. Just like the spurs usually have to wait until the end to get it together so will dallas (imo). But it's really tough on the impatient fan.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Kidd's is not a very good shooter but we DO NOT need another shooter.

Uhhh actually we do need another shooter.

[dude1394]

Reading over at dallasbasketball.com, comes this is statement. I must admit...it's enticing to go ahead and take the hit...I wonder if the mavs would be able to make the playoffs with devin playing big numbers.

A Mav Christmas Present We’ll once again lean on Professor Hans for a reflection and a comparison – this time, not Fortson-to-Belushi, but instead Devin Harris-to-Tony Parker:
Sayd Professor Hans: “Nellie might want to follow Popovich’s lead re Devin. Pop knew there would be growing pains with Tony Parker, but he stuck with the rookie, knowing that he’d get better, even if the improvement was of the “2 steps forward, 1 step back” variety. Maybe Nellie could simplify things for the kid for a while, so he could be a bit more consistent. But a talented kid can improve a lot over the course of 82 games. Darrell will not be improving at 36. He’s a great addition for a number of reasons, but it would be counterproductive to hand all of Devin’s minutes to him on the theory that Devin can "learn by watching." That's generally not how it works.’’
Clearly, Nellie doesn’t tap into the same psychological stream as the Professor. On Thursday, not only did the Mavs not start Devin – opting again for the newcomer vet Armstrong – but the coach eventually decided to go completely away from the concept of the traditional point guard, deciding to match Seattle with a SmallBall lineup consisting almost entirely of swingmen: Henderson or Dampier or Dirk as the lone big man, with Stackhouse, Finley, Daniels and Howard all on the floor at the same time.
The result? Twenty minutes for Armstrong, 17 minutes for Jason Terry, and a DNP-CD for the prized rookie.
And a loss.

[mnmpeanut]

I question putting the game in his hands when he hoisted up a three that fell short. If he had been back for a week or so I might have gone to him. But his first game back, you just have to wonder if he was running on no legs at that point.

somewhat off subject: i don't think they "went" to finley, i think the play was dirk's and only when he drove the lane and was surrounded did he find the open spot-up shooter. now, maybe fin not having his "game legs" under him hurt his chances of making it and you could argue that a tired fin maybe should have been sitting next to nellie, but i can't think of anyone else on the team, other than dirk, that i want out there more in that situation, legs or not.

[jayC]

Chemistry so many trades. This mavs team needs time to gel. Marquise Daniels wasn't the good playoff performer until the last 30 games of the season. Daniels, Finley, Tery and Dirk have all experienced ankle problems. This team hasn't played many games as a full unit. Second rookie point guards usually take a while to develop. Devin, maybe the most NBA ready starter out there, but he still has away to go.

What's right?
Dirk he has been sensational. When he is healthy that is.
The play of henderson and Dampier are front court has been really good.
The play of Josh Howard he wasn't supposed to start. And yet he is averaging 7.7 boards a game.

[samoan-maverick]

Im gonna say point gaurd play as number one and chemistry. We get our chemistry down, then who ever is our point gaurd will play better.

And their isnt a lot to worry about the only team with an advatage over us is San Antonio with a (2-0) lead. we lost once to Seattle, once to Phoenix, and once to Denver. If i remember correctly we play them thrice more times. Nothing to worry about.

What's wrong?

Nothing

[dude1394]

But I guess that Avery isn't too happy with Harris either right now. In the minnesota game after nellie was tossed with what 2 minutes into the game, Harris never got off the bench.

Guess Avery's as stupid as nelson.

[Captain Disaster]

The bottom line (as I have said repeatedly since day one) is that Cuban screwed up by not paying Nash. What looked like a big contract at the time, will not be considered large in 5 years. We got NOTHING for Nash; what an amazing foulup! I think that the Suns may go to the Finals this year (they have a better chance than we do so far). We all know about this "gelling" crap. Nash is the best point guard in the entire league, & we just let him walk!

Finley is over-the-hill, we have no legit backup for Dirk, and no point guard: we're f*cked for a long time; two years ago may have been the peak for Dallas.

Let's all hope that somehow things turn around; don't hold your breath!

[philb7777]

Captain Disaster, I agree.

[vinnieponte]

Going back to the whole point guard situation, have you guys seen what Dickau is doing in New Orleans?
He had 18 points last night against the nets and 17 point wednesday against the knicks. Maybe we should of waited and given this guy more time.

[u2sarajevo]

[EricaLubarsky]

CD: Oh no! We never should have traded NVE away! Oh wait, people are sick of that crap and NVE has proven exactly why he isnt great anymore. Oh, wait, I'll bring up Nash, in the first year of his hideous deal. Compare the surging Suns to the Mavs who are starting off slow. Let's Make fun of Finley for his age the day after he returned from injury. Let's discredit the solid efforts of Henderson (and his 11 second-chance points and 15 rebounds) or Booth.

Oh, but we need to gel, right? We needed to last year and that season we had Nash. Oh but wait, everything is in a vaccuum. We shouldn't think about how the Kings were poor when they first came together, or how Detroit started off slowly last year. Let's not even think about the T-Wolves. Forget about giving everything their true merit: that the Sonics and Suns have peaked early and that after 21 games, we are only one game behind where Detroit was last year after the same number of games.

Alas! We will never be the same team as the 02-03 team! Why even try! Why recognize the economic and temporal elements of team-building and sustaining!

[dude1394]

Well although I'm not quite the doom and gloomer, I also agree that letting nash go for nothing was stupid. How could it be judged otherwise. I understand cubes' reasoning and he does have a ton of payroll on this team. So letting steve go is one thing, getting nothing is QUITE another, stupid business move.

We do need to gel and I think we will get better. The fans who have whined about our atrocious defense for 4 years now should be the ones crowing about how much better it is, I don't hear them, all I hear is more fussing about the offense.

And of course the steady droning drumbeat of fire the coach, he's the reason we don't have 4 championships here.

[u2sarajevo]

I understand cubes' reasoning and he does have a ton of payroll on this team. So letting steve go is one thing, getting nothing is QUITE another, stupid business move.

You are being contradictory in this statement. For us to have "gotten something" from Nash we would have had to sign him, then trade him. So it would have increased salary by 130 million (that's an estimate based off the 6 year 65 million dollar figure... you must multiply that by 2 for luxury tax reasons).

There was absolutely no way to get something in return for Nash without increasing payroll dramatically.

[dude1394]

Well then he should have kept him. But I was thinking draft picks, second tier players, something like that.

[vinnieponte]

we should of signed him, there is nothing else to say about it. But whats done is done and we dont have time to wait a few more years for our point guard to develop when Dirk is playing his career best.

[u2sarajevo]

Cuban tried to sign him. He declined the offer.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
we should of signed him, there is nothing else to say about it. But whats done is done and we dont have time to wait a few more years for our point guard to develop when Dirk is playing his career best.

I agree with you on it vinnie. I just can't decide if gambling on harris and risking either being out of the playoffs or at a very low seed is worth it. I do think that we would not win it this year with him, but it might be the only way to set us up for next year. DAMN! Just makes me angry all over again thinking about it. Another year cubes' is playing around.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: u2sarajevo
Cuban tried to sign him. He declined the offer.

As I like to say SCOREBOARD.

Sure he tried to sign him below market value, that's not exactly excusable in and of itself.

[u2sarajevo]

Cuban's offer was not "below" market value. Phoenix's offer was "over" market value. The difference between the two deals was not major.

So, you say, why doesn't Cuban increase to match? I ask you, then, why wouldn't Nash accept the slightly lower offer?

All we can do is speculate. I am inclined to think that Nash was unsure about signing with Dallas because of the trade rumors in the past and the ones circulating at the time he signed with Phoenix.

It's time to get over it. If you hate Cuban for it, great. Don't go to the games, and don't support the team - that's the only way Cuban will feel your hate.

Otherwise, deal with it. We can't change it now.

[vinnieponte]

hmmmm lets see was nash worth it, YES, and his numbers prove it. And c'mon Mark acted like he was going to be broke, it's our loss anyway you look at it and Like I said, Dirk is in his prime, but we don't have all the pieces to build around that, and if we dont act soon, this year will be a wash, dirk will be frustrated and trade demands from him wouldn't suprise me at all. We need to get kidd, there is no way around it. We screwed our selves the first time around, lets not make it a second!

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: u2sarajevo
Cuban's offer was not "below" market value. Phoenix's offer was "over" market value. The difference between the two deals was not major.

So, you say, why doesn't Cuban increase to match? I ask you, then, why wouldn't Nash accept the slightly lower offer?

All we can do is speculate. I am inclined to think that Nash was unsure about signing with Dallas because of the trade rumors in the past and the ones circulating at the time he signed with Phoenix.

It's time to get over it. If you hate Cuban for it, great. Don't go to the games, and don't support the team - that's the only way Cuban will feel your hate.

Otherwise, deal with it. We can't change it now.

U2 I don't "hate" cubes for it, but I think I can debate that imo it was a stupid basketball AND business move. His franchise right now is rated as what about 5th in worth. Would that jump to 1st,2nd with stevie/dirk/damp/fin/jho etc. leading the league? Being in line for a championship...

I think cubes is GREAT in fact, but I can still be angry about what I see as two years of wasted opportunity. Last year was a complete cluster and this one had the makings of being something really special, but cubes decided that stevie wasn't that integral to their success. Yea, I'm po'd about it and will probably continue to play the what-if game until/unless we get our pg situation straightened out or heaven-forbid little stevie breaks down completely.

[dude1394]

As far as stevie not accepting the lower offer, well, from what I read I didn't see that he was given much room to negotiate. Phoenix gave him and offer, just like he and cubes and everyone expected. He gave cubes the right of refusal, cubes said nope, I can't go that high, have a good life.

Now that's cubes perogative and of course stevies as well. But everyone knew steve was a free-agent, cubes told him to test the waters, see what he could get and then intimated that he would match because he's been so important. When the rubber hit the road, cubes didn't. Stevie (correctly it seems to me) acted on his best interests in taking his last contract in the league. I really do not see why a guy (millionaire though he is) should be the one to take less from the billionaire. Stevie's worth wasn't what cubes thought it was, it was what the market thought it was.

I don't understand why folks feel steve shouldn't have taken more money to play for an up and coming team that obviously felt he was more important to their success than the mavericks did.
I just don't get it, I wouldn't have done it, I'd be very surprised if many people would.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: vinnieponte
hmmmm lets see was nash worth it, YES, and his numbers prove it. And c'mon Mark acted like he was going to be broke, it's our loss anyway you look at it and Like I said, Dirk is in his prime, but we don't have all the pieces to build around that, and if we dont act soon, this year will be a wash, dirk will be frustrated and trade demands from him wouldn't suprise me at all. We need to get kidd, there is no way around it. We screwed our selves the first time around, lets not make it a second!

We agree except for the kidd part. I really don't want any part of him. I'd much rather force-feed harris to be honest. But I was surprised to see Avery not play him at minnesota, that tells me that maybe he's being a little hard-headed right now and not listening well.

[vinnieponte]

Originally posted by: dude1394

We agree except for the kidd part. I really don't want any part of him. I'd much rather force-feed harris to be honest. But I was surprised to see Avery not play him at minnesota, that tells me that maybe he's being a little hard-headed right now and not listening well.

dude, when I speak of jason kidd, its because he would work in so many different ways. He wants out, we need him, he has played here before, he is one of the best passers in the league ( and we suck at it) We also have tradable pieces, and with dirk playing the way he is, we need something a.s.a.p. waiting for harris to develop or sitting on anything till the offseason will be destructive for us.

[SeriousSummer]

Quis didn't play that much until the end of the year, and he seemed to get it pretty good.

What's wrong? The Mavs aren't the best team in the league right now. But they're pretty good. If Fin and Quis get well, Terry, Armstrong and Harris start playing a little better, the Centers (Damp and Booth--Bradley is what he is) get used to the system, and (knock on wood) Dirk stays well, then the Mavs will be very competitive.

They won't be a dominant team, but they might be in the mix for a chance at the championship.

You really shouldn't be worried. Be happy![img]i/expressions/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[dude1394]

Vinnie....I just can't stand the guy. He seems like a serious cancer to me, everywhere he's gone it's blown up. I don't know if it's his fault or not, but you just don't see dominant players traded around like he has been. Not interested...

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: dude1394
As far as stevie not accepting the lower offer, well, from what I read I didn't see that he was given much room to negotiate. Phoenix gave him and offer, just like he and cubes and everyone expected. He gave cubes the right of refusal, cubes said nope, I can't go that high, have a good life.

Now that's cubes perogative and of course stevies as well. But everyone knew steve was a free-agent, cubes told him to test the waters, see what he could get and then intimated that he would match because he's been so important. When the rubber hit the road, cubes didn't. Stevie (correctly it seems to me) acted on his best interests in taking his last contract in the league. I really do not see why a guy (millionaire though he is) should be the one to take less from the billionaire. Stevie's worth wasn't what cubes thought it was, it was what the market thought it was.

I don't understand why folks feel steve shouldn't have taken more money to play for an up and coming team that obviously felt he was more important to their success than the mavericks did.
I just don't get it, I wouldn't have done it, I'd be very surprised if many people would.

Wow.... you mean Stevie made a sound business decision? In my opinion, so did Cuban. I'm not faulting Nash for taking the money. I would have too (well, that's probably not true because I've been a Maverick fan since the teams inception..... but I digress). No matter how you look at it, both sides evaluated the situation and came to their own conclusions. Cuban didn't think it was worth the extra money and Nash didn't think it was worth that much despite the "loyalty" questions.

In business hard decisions have to be made. And when they are made like the one made here (losing an integral part of the equation), there is going to be a time-investment on bringing your business back up to speed. It is sooooooo easy 21 games in to say it's a mistake. If we didn't think so, Charles Barkley would be correct and Devin Harris would be ripping up the league. But he's a rookie, and unlike the rookie's from last year he is going to have to get acclimated to the NBA game.

Personally, I don't think Nash would have been playing the lights out game he is in Phoneix had he stayed in Dallas. He was motivated by Cuban not matching. He has a vendetta. It's personal. And I am sure that Cuban sees the box score and laments at times also. But it's still too early to judge this move.

[dude1394]

Yes U2 stevie made a business decision and so did cubes. I understand that, I just disagree with the decision. IMO being much more competitive is more valuable than possibly not competing and having another year of the teams core development in jeopardy.

I don't think I'm knee-jerking because of the early season woes, I think I've been pretty consistent on this, and raef of course [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img], but only because last year was so ridiculous imo.

As I've even said in this thread I'm a huge cubes fan, but not in this instance, I think he made a very bad mistake.. Sure it might turn out okay and I'll be wrong, but again just in my opinion stevie was a very,very known asset that was arguably a top 5 point guard in the leage. We've gone from a top 5 PG to our top PG is a 36 year old second string armstrong. It looks like another big gamble to me. If devon is a bust, then the year probably is as well and they will be hunting for a guy for years.

[u2sarajevo]

You can't argue that Nash was a known asset as well as top 5 point guard.

We obviously disagree with the business decision aspect. I wish we could have gotten something in return. But if he's not going to play here, it would have served no purpose to sign and trade other than to increase our payroll.... something that no smart business person would even think of doing.

[Poindexter Einstein]

As I read this thread, I think of only one thing:

WELCOME TO PANIC LAND