Mavs need a quarterback - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

kriD · 03-06-2006, 10:33 AM

Mavs need a quarterback

By Jennifer Floyd Engel
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

DALLAS -- Just when we were finally starting to get over losing Steve Nash, he comes back Sunday and reminds us all over again what exactly the Mavericks are missing.

He was at his maddening best in the Suns' 115-107 win.

Not since Troy Aikman has a team missed a quarterback as much as the Mavericks miss Nash.

What is both ironic and infuriating is that the Mavericks are probably a true point guard away from being a guaranteed lock in the NBA Finals this season.

"It is ironic, in some ways. I wanted to stay, and it just didn't happen," Nash said. "In other ways, I think that is kind of unfair. I think Jason Terry is a terrific player. He might not be a point guard in the traditional sense of the word, but he is also their second-best player."

Agreed.

What Terry needs is to be the Mavericks No. 2 guard, and Devin Harris needs to slide into the starting lineup.

He is the closest thing they have to the quarterback they lack.

This is not to say Harris, who is injured, would have fared better against Nash. Suns coach Mike D'Antoni properly summed up the Mavs' Nash containment problem Sunday when he said: "The whole league has a hard time with that one."

This is exactly why Harris needs to start: to see if he fares any better.

I broached my Harris-into-the-starting-lineup theory to Mavs coach Avery Johnson before Sunday's game.

Let's just say coach Engel is 0-for-1.

"No, I haven't," he said when asked if he had considered starting Harris.

"I haven't," he added for emphasis.

And, just in case any doubt remained, he followed that with: "I think our starting lineup pretty much will remain the same."

There are a couple of reasons for this. None of which is bigger than the fact that the Mavs have morphed into one of the best teams in the league with their current formation.

They also like the spark Harris brings off the bench.

There is also the little detail of not wanting to bench Adrian Griffin, who has played his butt off for this team, but Johnson does acknowledge ...

"I can look at about three games we've lost this year that, if we had Devin, I think we would have had a better chance to win."

I was sitting courtside for one of them.

Thursday. In San Antonio.

Not only would Harris have been useful in slowing Tony Parker, his ball-management skills were exactly what the Mavs need when things get crazy on offense.

Ditto for Sunday.

What the Mavs again found themselves struggling to do was get good shots, much less swing the ball for the best one.

"We just have to be more decisive as a team in our approach," Johnson said. "But we love Terry. We think he's one of the top point guards in the league. We think that Devin makes him better. When he can get back, we think he can be even better."

So why not start them that way?

I realize I am advocating the benching of Griffin.

I know what you are thinking. I am half-tempted to slap an idiot tag on my own head.

He has been great. He has been better than great. He has been a lifesaver considering what a lurch Doug Christie left this team in and the injuries they've had.

Neither he nor Terry is a true point guard, though, an illustration of what exactly that entails provided by Nash on Sunday.

Nash finished with 25 points and 11 assists, most of his best coming in the final five minutes, starting with the Suns trailing 100-97.

When all was said and done, he had his hand in 16 of the Suns' final 18 points.

It is not a fair comparison. Few are like Nash.

What we were told when the Mavs decided not to re-sign him two years ago was he was getting too old and was going to break down.

"I think that was spin," Nash said. "I feel like I did when I was 25."

There is never going to be a day when Nash walks into the American Airlines Center that I do not wonder if the Mavericks made the right decision.

Not that it matters.

He is gone, and this Mavs team is still very, very good. What they are missing is a quarterback.

It is time to see if Harris is that guy.

dude1394 · 03-06-2006, 10:48 AM

She should slap an idiot-tag, knee-jerk tag on her head.

jthig32 · 03-06-2006, 10:51 AM

Quote:

What we were told when the Mavs decided not to re-sign him two years ago was he was getting too old and was going to break down.

"I think that was spin," Nash said. "I feel like I did when I was 25."

He can call it spin all he wants, and maybe some of it was, but there's CERTAINLY some truth in there as well. He WAS breaking down somewhat. He WAS dragging noticeably when the playoffs rolled around.

sixeightmkw · 03-06-2006, 10:52 AM

I don't remember the Mavs having a better record when Nash was here, or doing the things they are doing this season that they did with Nash. In my opinion, they are doing just fine with out Nash.

dude1394 · 03-06-2006, 10:54 AM

Even AJ talks about how much better physical shape nash is in now than then. I think he got out of the bars to be honest.

Rhylan · 03-06-2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Even AJ talks about how much better physical shape nash is in now than then. I think he got out of the bars to be honest.

Totally agree. His physical turnaround coincided with having a pregnant wife who is also a physical trainer.

I also think that he and Finley both suffered from effort deficits in their last seasons here - I blame that partially on being coddled by Nellie, although the individual players deserve blame for dragging ass, too.

jayC · 03-06-2006, 11:27 AM

The mavs are 2-1 against the Suns. 2-0 against the Heat, 1-2 against San Antonio and 1-0 against the Pistons.

Devin Harris and Josh Howard are the teams best all around players on the team. DA to Devin is a huge drop off in play. Teams hit snags in the schedule. The mavs have still not suffered more than one two game losing streak.

chumdawg · 03-06-2006, 02:14 PM

The guy may well be the best player to ever wear a Mavericks uniform.

And no, the guy isn't wearing down. I think he's like one of those soccer players who goes until he is 40. He's just a different sort of player than what the NBA is used to. He plays a different sort of game, and he plays on a completely different level.

Arne · 03-06-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The guy may well be the best player to ever wear a Mavericks uniform.

And no, the guy isn't wearing down. I think he's like one of those soccer players who goes until he is 40. He's just a different sort of player than what the NBA is used to. He plays a different sort of game, and he plays on a completely different level.

When the greatest player ever to wear a Mavericks uniform left for the money, the Mavs actually played better the following season.

What happened when the greatest player ever to wear a Bulls uniform left them? Not exactly the same, huh?

Dtownsfinest · 03-06-2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

"I think that was spin," Nash said. "I feel like I did when I was 25."

Of course it was a spin. That's how this Mavericks franchise works. They have no problems with the player when their here. You don't hear a damn thing about Nash wearing down when he's a Mav. You don't hear anything about Finley being a cancer in the locker room and not buying the system that Avery is trying to bring in when he's a Mav. It all comes out after they depart from the Mavs. Its the bs they feed Mavericks fans and som choose to believe. Fact is, the Mavericks didn't want to resign Nash because they wanted to go into a different direction. They underrated Nash's value to the team. Simple as that. No need to feed any bs. Tell it like it is.

Dtownsfinest · 03-06-2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arne

When the greatest player ever to wear a Mavericks uniform left for the money, the Mavs actually played better the following season.

What happened when the greatest player ever to wear a Bulls uniform left them? Not exactly the same, huh?

The Mavericks had a better record yes. That doesn't necessarily mean a better team. Especially with a 2nd round exit.

WraithXx · 03-06-2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

The Mavericks had a better record yes. That doesn't necessarily mean a better team. Especially with a 2nd round exit.

as opposed to a 1st round exit the year before?

kg_veteran · 03-06-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

The guy may well be the best player to ever wear a Mavericks uniform.

The Nash that is playing in Phoenix never played here. If you think that a guy who put up 14/8 was the best player ever to wear a Mavericks uniform, well, I just don't know what to tell you.

kg_veteran · 03-06-2006, 02:38 PM

As for Engel's article, I don't know about starting Harris, but he needs to be on the floor at the end of games.

u2sarajevo · 03-06-2006, 02:38 PM

The Mavericks have maintained their win/loss record because in Nash's absence we still have Dirk and an owner that was able to plug holes left by Nash's exit.

Now, were they completely filled (the holes)? I doubt it. Nash is a special player.

The knock on Nash was his defense. Terry seems to have the same problem, but without the assists to "make up" for it.

I think you might be able to argue that Terry is a better clutch performer. Especially in the playoffs. At least compared to what Nash gave us when he was here.

But you can't compare the two players. Not even close. One's an MVP. One passes to an MVP-hopeful.

chumdawg · 03-06-2006, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

The Nash that is playing in Phoenix never played here. If you think that a guy who put up 14/8 was the best player ever to wear a Mavericks uniform, well, I just don't know what to tell you.

Perhaps it would help if I reworded the sentence in an attempt to prevent misinterpretation.

Steve Nash may well be the best player to have ever, at any point in his career, worn a Mavericks uniform.

kg_veteran · 03-06-2006, 02:49 PM

If you word it that way I'd have to argue that Nowitzki and probably Kidd were still better, but, I can see your argument.

kg_veteran · 03-06-2006, 02:50 PM

And, oh yeah, Mark Aguirre.

Rhylan · 03-06-2006, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

The Nash that is playing in Phoenix never played here.

This CAN'T be said enough. Thank you KG.

Was it Nash? Was he lazy? Complacent? Deferring as a leader? Spending too much time chasing women? Trying too hard to be Mr. Bohemian-Laid-Back-Where's-The-Weed? Was he taking advantage of being a favorite of Nellie's?

Either way, it doesn't matter. I don't think it's Mike D'Antoni's superior coaching or Shawn Marion's textbook jumper elevating Nash's game. It's a change in Nash. Either the guy wasn't giving 110% or he wasn't taking care of himself as best he could. You can look at the Mavs team now and marvel at the "what if" Nash was running the point, but you know what.. after leaving and looking SO much better, I don't want Nash. If Dirk left Dallas and suddenly became the second coming of MJ in a 7-ft body, I'd dislike him, too.

I want players that give their all while they have Mavs on their jersey. I'll always like guys like Griffin, Diop, Howard, DA, Terry (even though he is losing me on defense) and even NVE and Najera (although they were vastly overrated by fans, they did give 110% while in a Mavs uni).

At this point I do question Dirk as falling into this category at times, particularly '03-'04 and last year's playoffs, but, like Nash, if it's a lack of effort or discipline or whatever, it might not be evident until it's in hindsight and he's playing out of his mind in another setting.

chumdawg · 03-06-2006, 03:21 PM

I thought the concensus view was the Phoenix system (and roster) was uniquely suited for Nash's talents. Even if that's not the sole reason for his better production, and if the reason has more to do with his additional years of seasoning and experience, I still have a very difficult time looking at anything he did here and finding much of a flaw with it.

By my way of thinking, you could bring back the Nash that was a Maverick, and we would still be many, many times improved at that position...and doubtless the clear-cut best team in the conference and also the league. If his additional seasoning and experience made him that much better than when he was here, that's just gravy.

This article is spot on. The Mavs *desperately* need a quarterback. They can spend most of the season masking that need, but it will show up come playoff time. I just hope it's not as bad as the last playoff game this team played, when pretty much nobody on the court knew what to do in the closing seconds.

Milles · 03-06-2006, 03:37 PM

Marquis doesn't see any difference in Nash from his Dallas days.

"On how Steve Nash compares now to when he was in Dallas:
He’s still the same player. He’s still doing the same things he was doing when he was here; he’s shooting a lot more there. He’s still knocking down big shots and getting his players involved. "

dude1394 · 03-06-2006, 04:09 PM

To be honest I don't see a tremendous difference in steve's on-court game. He seems to be in better shape, but that was bound to have been happening anyway.

Stranger · 03-06-2006, 04:21 PM

What I don't see is how the complaints with this team square with the praise of Nash. We lost to the Spurs and the Suns. How did the 02-03 team, which is so often held up as the gold standard, fare against the elite of the NBA? Well, let's see:

1-3 against the Lakers (the only win came without Shaq, and one of the losses was the second biggest collapse in NBA history)
1-3 against the Kings
2-2 against San Antonio

For a total of a 4-8 record against the top 3 teams.
We won 60 games, for a winning percentage of .732.

This year against the top 3 teams:

1-2 against the Spurs
1-0 against the Pistons
2-1 against the Suns

4-3 against the top three teams.
Currently on pace for a 64 win season with a .780 winning percentage.

So how exactly did the best player in Mavs history help us out so much?

Stranger · 03-06-2006, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

By my way of thinking, you could bring back the Nash that was a Maverick, and we would still be many, many times improved at that position...and doubtless the clear-cut best team in the conference and also the league.

Yeah, and if the Pistons had drafted Dwayne Wade, they'd be the best team since the old Bulls. You can't throw out all the great things this team has done over one bad move. It's not as if this team somehow assembled itself, and then management came in and jettisoned Nash.

Milles · 03-06-2006, 04:30 PM

Mavs fans better hope that Nash retires sooner, rather than later. I foresee these discussions ongoing until he retires. Same arguments, stats and all the other detritus left over from his departure, whether welcome or otherwise.

baldone · 03-06-2006, 04:31 PM

When Nash was here, the mavs never had a Shawn Marion type finisher. In fact, Nash was probably our best finisher on those teams. These Phoenix teams are uniquely suited to Nash's skills and, really, the Dallas teams weren't. We had a few good shooters, but nobody that could finish at the rim.

And for all the talk of how Nash killed us on Sunday, PHX made all their runs with Nash out of the game. They were better with the offense running through Barbosa/Diaw.

chumdawg · 03-06-2006, 04:35 PM

I'm just saying that I kinda drool over the idea of a Nash/Harris/Daniels/Terry backcourt. I think it would be better than what we now have.

sixeightmkw · 03-06-2006, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I'm just saying that I kinda drool over the idea of a Nash/Harris/Daniels/Terry backcourt. I think it would be better than what we now have.

and the most expensive in NBA history

Milles · 03-06-2006, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baldone

When Nash was here, the mavs never had a Shawn Marion type finisher. In fact, Nash was probably our best finisher on those teams. These Phoenix teams are uniquely suited to Nash's skills and, really, the Dallas teams weren't. We had a few good shooters, but nobody that could finish at the rim.

And for all the talk of how Nash killed us on Sunday, PHX made all their runs with Nash out of the game. They were better with the offense running through Barbosa/Diaw.

I am not going to take anything away from their second unit, but who closed the game out? Nash either assisted or scored their last 16 of 18 points. Isn't that what you want your teams MVP to do?

chumdawg · 03-06-2006, 04:50 PM

You think? They would average about five or six million each.

Milles · 03-06-2006, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

and the most expensive in NBA history

Currently the Nets and Knicks have that honor. I think the Nets backcourt of Kidd and Carter is about $200,000. more costly than the Knicks Marbury and Francis this year.

sixeightmkw · 03-06-2006, 04:52 PM

That seems like alot for a bunch of guards. I don't know thought. It would definately be nice.

Dtownsfinest · 03-06-2006, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WraithXx

as opposed to a 1st round exit the year before?

No as opposed to a Western Conference Finals appearance.

Dtownsfinest · 03-06-2006, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

The Mavericks have maintained their win/loss record because in Nash's absence we still have Dirk and an owner that was able to plug holes left by Nash's exit.

Now, were they completely filled (the holes)? I doubt it. Nash is a special player.

The knock on Nash was his defense. Terry seems to have the same problem, but without the assists to "make up" for it.

I think you might be able to argue that Terry is a better clutch performer. Especially in the playoffs. At least compared to what Nash gave us when he was here.

But you can't compare the two players. Not even close. One's an MVP. One passes to an MVP-hopeful.

I was watching Nash's defense very closely yesterday and I honestly don't understand how anyone in their right mind can think Terry is a better defender than Nash. Maybe Terry looked bad on defense because he was guarding Nash but I was not impressed with his defense yesterday.

dude1394 · 03-06-2006, 05:18 PM

Nash closed the game and extended their run. popcornmachine.net has the game flow.

foglemann · 03-06-2006, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhylan

This CAN'T be said enough. Thank you KG.

Was it Nash? Was he lazy? Complacent? Deferring as a leader? Spending too much time chasing women? Trying too hard to be Mr. Bohemian-Laid-Back-Where's-The-Weed? Was he taking advantage of being a favorite of Nellie's?

Either way, it doesn't matter. I don't think it's Mike D'Antoni's superior coaching or Shawn Marion's textbook jumper elevating Nash's game. It's a change in Nash. Either the guy wasn't giving 110% or he wasn't taking care of himself as best he could. You can look at the Mavs team now and marvel at the "what if" Nash was running the point, but you know what.. after leaving and looking SO much better, I don't want Nash. If Dirk left Dallas and suddenly became the second coming of MJ in a 7-ft body, I'd dislike him, too.

I want players that give their all while they have Mavs on their jersey. I'll always like guys like Griffin, Diop, Howard, DA, Terry (even though he is losing me on defense) and even NVE and Najera (although they were vastly overrated by fans, they did give 110% while in a Mavs uni).

At this point I do question Dirk as falling into this category at times, particularly '03-'04 and last year's playoffs, but, like Nash, if it's a lack of effort or discipline or whatever, it might not be evident until it's in hindsight and he's playing out of his mind in another setting.

Great post Rhylan. Also a point by KG that is where it all starts. Nash as a Mavs is not the same as the Nash with the Suns. He just plays harder with that team.
I'll put my own twist on it, I believe Nellie is sole problem with losing Nash. First off, Cubes knew he would hate if we didn't resign Nash, thus forcing his retirement faster. Cubes was getting tired of Nellie running around the defense. Second, Nellie himself, had too big of an ego to let Nash, obviously a great leader now, really take the lead with this team. I think that Nellie was proud of his 'offensive monster' that he wouldn't see what was right in front of him. Anyway, everytime I see Nash do what he does against us, I blame Nellie first and foremost.

Dtownsfinest · 03-06-2006, 05:26 PM

I don't think it has anything to do with Nash's personal life. He's playing as hard as he did as a Mav. The difference are the teams. The Suns and Mavs of the past are two different teams. They both were labeled run and gun but the Mavs weren't that type of run and gun team. That Suns team can score inside. They have players who can play in the post. The Mavericks never had players as athletically gifted as Amare and Marion. Never. Fin's game was more shoot the J and on occasion get to the rack and get a facial on a player here and there. Dirk's game was midrange to outside. That's a jumpshooting team IMO. Not a run and gun team like the Suns are. The make up of the teams have a huge part to do with Nash's success. That Suns team can actually score an easy bucket when they need one. That was a problem the Mavs always had with Nash running point for us.

dude1394 · 03-06-2006, 05:46 PM

I think cubes just screwed up man, no nefarious motives about nellie, he just didn't think nash would hold up for the number of years that the suns were offering.

sixeightmkw · 03-06-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I think cubes just screwed up man, no nefarious motives about nellie, he just didn't think nash would hold up for the number of years that the suns were offering.

I don't think he will either. Sure he isn't going to drop off the first 2 years, but I bet by the end of his contract we'll see some drop off.

Dtownsfinest · 03-06-2006, 05:59 PM

That's the risk you take. You think Shaq is gonna play out his contract? Of course not but he does help them contend right now and that's the same thinking that should've went into the Nash decision. I'd still give Nash the contract even if he was to drop off next season. This is a guy who may be a back to back MVP winner.