Soriano - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

jthig32 · 03-20-2006, 07:33 PM

I was going to put this in the Hot Stove Thread, but I think this deserves its own thread:

Quote:

Second baseman Alfonso Soriano informed the Nationals on Monday afternoon that he will not play outfield for them, while the team told him that he could be placed on the disqualified list if he failed to do so.
Soriano, who played most of March representing the Dominican Republic World Baseball Classic, was set to hit leadoff and play the outfield for the Nationals against the Dodgers on Monday night. But when the players went out on the field, only eight players were present.
Manager Frank Robinson then went to home plate umpire Mike Estabrook and told him that a lineup change was going to be made. Brandon Watson, who was supposed to sit out the game, went to center field, while Ryan Church switched from center to left field.
A few minutes later, general manager Jim Bowden indicated that Soriano will be given a second chance to play the outfield on Wednesday afternoon against the Cardinals. If Soriano refused to play the outfield that day, the team most likely will put him on the disqualified list without pay. "He made it pretty clear that he was not going to play," Bowden said. "We hope that when he reflects on it, we hope that he changes his mind and plays left field."

Wow....just...wow

Murphy3 · 03-20-2006, 09:07 PM

Yes, it makes Soriano look like a total 5 year old..but what did the Nationals expect? He made it clear before the trade was made that he was not playing in the outfield. They have no one to blame but themselves...

Drbio · 03-20-2006, 09:27 PM

He is under contract to play baseball. Fark him. There is nothing in his contract that confines his play to second base. Sadly, Sori is only interested in the "ME" in Team. He is a total ass. I hope the Nats can his butt into the disqualified list. He will still be obligated to them and he won't be able to play until he clears the Nats obligations. Additionally, and this is hte best part.....he doesn't get paid.

F 'em.

chumdawg · 03-20-2006, 09:30 PM

C'mon, what do the Nationals really have to lose? Play the man at second base.

Spot on, Murph. The Nationals made this bed...

Five-ofan · 03-20-2006, 10:03 PM

They have a better second basemen IF he is healthy. Soriano is under the mistaken impression he is a good second basemen. That said this idea that someone who has refused to do something for everyone else but all of a sudden is gonna agree to do it for you is just stupid imo. Its what scares me about the TO situation for the cowboys. A man isnt the man that he was in your last conversation but is the man that he has been for the rest of his life. Soriano has always said he wouldnt move, then again i think robinson might be the only gm in the game with the stones to sit his ass on the bench if he says no to playing in the outfield. I hope he does.

Drbio · 03-20-2006, 10:07 PM

Bury his idiotic ass on the DQ'd list with no pay.

jthig32 · 03-20-2006, 10:32 PM

Newberg had an interesting note in one of his recent columns, saying that the Nationals requested permission to talk to Soriano before the trade was completed, one would assume to discuss the outfield. The Rangers used their right to say no, and Bowden went ahead and did the trade anyway.

And make no mistake, Vidro is a markedly better player than Soriano. He is NOT going to win this battle.

chumdawg · 03-20-2006, 10:40 PM

Let him play shortstop, then!

ames7 · 03-21-2006, 01:52 AM

I can't believe he is doing something that moronic. If you haven't read this Washington Post story on this, it's pretty interesting:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031901002.html

Stupid & rather arrogant of Washington to do the trade anyway despite not getting permission to talk to Sori before the deal.

chumdawg · 03-21-2006, 02:29 AM

I, for one, am glad that Soriano is striking back against the slave-owner mentality that a lot of pro ball clubs seem to have. The guy is a second baseman. That's what he is. He's not an outfielder. Doesn't want to be an outfielder, never been an outfielder. He's a second baseman. Take him or leave him.

Sorry about the Nationals' luck, if they thought they could magically make him into something he's not. But screw them and their attitude. They traded for a second baseman. Now they have two, and now they can figure out what what to do with them. It's not Soriano's fault that they fucked up their personnel decisions so badly.

WraithXx · 03-21-2006, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I, for one, am glad that Soriano is striking back against the slave-owner mentality that a lot of pro ball clubs seem to have. The guy is a second baseman. That's what he is. He's not an outfielder. Doesn't want to be an outfielder, never been an outfielder. He's a second baseman. Take him or leave him.

Sorry about the Nationals' luck, if they thought they could magically make him into something he's not. But screw them and their attitude. They traded for a second baseman. Now they have two, and now they can figure out what what to do with them. It's not Soriano's fault that they fucked up their personnel decisions so badly.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

jthig32 · 03-21-2006, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I, for one, am glad that Soriano is striking back against the slave-owner mentality that a lot of pro ball clubs seem to have. The guy is a second baseman. That's what he is. He's not an outfielder. Doesn't want to be an outfielder, never been an outfielder. He's a second baseman. Take him or leave him.

Sorry about the Nationals' luck, if they thought they could magically make him into something he's not. But screw them and their attitude. They traded for a second baseman. Now they have two, and now they can figure out what what to do with them. It's not Soriano's fault that they fucked up their personnel decisions so badly.

That is utterly ridiculous. I can't even put in to words how ridiculous this is. He's a freaking employee. They don't sign contract to play a certain position. They sign to play freaking baseball. If you want to sign a free agent deal and stipulate in your contract that you play a certain position, fine. But if it's not in there, you either get to play, or you get to lose your money.

I wonder if you'd have the same reaction if Dirk would refuse to take the court playing the 5. What would you do if he told AJ, "Hell no, I'm not guarding their Center, get a damn center in there!". It's the same thing.

I would wager that Stackhouse would be crucified in this town if he straight up refused to come off the bench. Same thing. What if Andre Gurod took a stand and said "I'm a guard, don't play me at center". It's ridiculous.

I hope like hell Sori keeps this up and he loses his ten mil.

Murphy3 · 03-21-2006, 09:12 AM

It is a rather ridiculous post to say the least. They're trying to make him into something he's not? Let's not kid ourselves.. It's not like he's really a second baseman. He's never actually played defense at that spot. Perhaps if they put him in the outfield and told him that it was second base, he'd be more than happy to play there. He'd probably never know the difference.

MFFL · 03-21-2006, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

It is a rather ridiculous post to say the least. They're trying to make him into something he's not? Let's not kid ourselves.. It's not like he's really a second baseman. He's never actually played defense at that spot. Perhaps if they put him in the outfield and told him that it was second base, he'd be more than happy to play there. He'd probably never know the difference.

Soriano's career fielding percentage of .971 at second base is tied for the worst at the position in the last 50 years among players with at least 650 games there.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...1901002_5.html

Drbio · 03-21-2006, 10:32 AM

I sure hope chummy is going for schtick because that was one of the most retarded posts I have read otherwise.

Great post jthig.

vjz · 03-21-2006, 10:45 AM

I don't get it... what is wrong with playing in the outfield? Any idea why he doesn't wanna play the outfield?

jthig32 · 03-21-2006, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vjz

I don't get it... what is wrong with playing in the outfield? Any idea why he doesn't wanna play the outfield?

While he can't play 2nd defensively, when he does actually play 2B, his offense is, at least in some areas, somewhat special. Make him an outfielder, and he's just another guy, if not worse. No where near an all star. Just another guy outfielders don't make 10mil a year, which is what he got in arb this year.

That's why.

dalmations202 · 03-21-2006, 11:22 AM

Washington stands to lose out of this in every way if they do not give in to Sori and move Vidro to short like the Rangers did their all-star second baseman.

Sori just has to go out to the outfield to meet his "obligation"; without even trying to play the position well. Talk about a major problem.

I wonder if the Nationals mgmt thought that Texas hadn't already had this conversation? With Sori's ability with the bat, did they think that Texas didn't have long conversations about moving to the outfield? Did they ever check out Texas's outfield #'s?

If Sori were willing to move to the outfield, wouldn't have have looked good in Texas's outfield?

The Nat's made the $10M bed, now sleep in it. They pay Sori more than Vidro, so they must think more of him.

jthig32 · 03-21-2006, 11:33 AM

$10mil is his arb number. I assure he will get nothing near that in free agency. His numbers would have looked "ok" for us in the outfield, and I'd bet my house he'll put up below average numbers for an outfielder in Washington.

BTW, not every 2B has the ability to move over and play SS. Mike Young came up through the minors as a SS, which made his transition somewhat easier, but he isn't exactley a gold glove SS, either. Most 2B don't have the range or arm to play SS. Ironically enough, Sori started as a SS in the Yankees system, and probably has the range and arm for it, but good grief, no one in their right mind would move him there.

Murphy3 · 03-21-2006, 11:50 AM

The Rangers wanted hiim to play CF... His numbers would have been much more than average at the CF spot.

sike · 03-21-2006, 11:52 AM

Sori a butthole???? whaaaaa?

jthig32 · 03-21-2006, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

The Rangers wanted hiim to play CF... His numbers would have been much more than average at the CF spot.

At CF he would have been above average offensively in some areas. That's assuming he could have played CF, which is doubtful in my mind. But yes, he would have been somewhat of an asset in CF. My remarks were made based on LF stats.

Keep in mind though, that Daniels is trying to increase the on base percentage of this lineup. He's said that from day one. While Soriano did well in the pretty numbers, his horrible on base percentage was a microcosm of the huge flaw with this lineup, in that it could put up huge numbers most nights, but could also be shut down by good pitching, because no one got on base, no one hit with runners in scoring position, and no one worked counts.

sike · 03-21-2006, 11:55 AM

has anyone heard/read or like to speculate about the 1-9 day to day line?

chumdawg · 03-21-2006, 12:06 PM

I don't think you will have to look far to find examples of careers that have been damaged, sometimes damaged badly or even ruined, by management. Witness Murph's claims that Nellie did great harm to Bradley's career by letting him rot on the bench.

I guess you are free to believe that pro athletes are just commodities to be used at the whim of the teams that own them, but I myself have sympathy for the real person behind that employee number.

There is more to managing human resources than blindly passing out assignments.

sike · 03-21-2006, 12:16 PM

I myself have sympathy for the real person behind that employee number

for Sori or just pros in general?

chumdawg · 03-21-2006, 12:21 PM

Pros in general. I don't care much for Sori in specific.

sike · 03-21-2006, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Pros in general. I don't care much for Sori in specific.

thats what I figured...I don't know anyone who really likes Sori.....

Murphy3 · 03-21-2006, 01:18 PM

Is sori being wronged at all? He's had managers bend over backwards the last few years of his career playing him where he'd like to play instead of where the team needs him.... There is no excuse for the manner in which Sori is behaving..

jthig32 · 03-21-2006, 01:22 PM

Good grief Chum, you sound like a bleeding heart. They're asking him to play a different fielding position, not give up his money or his uniform. Gimme a break.

Five-ofan · 03-21-2006, 01:45 PM

Slave owner mentality? He will get paid 10 million this year. Im pretty sure slaves didnt get paid much less get paid 10 million a year. Moving from second to left field isnt that damn big a deal. The problem is he will suck as an outfielder too because he cant judge infield pop ups so i seriously doubt he can judge flies worth a damn. That said a horrible defensive left fielder is nowhere near the liability a bad defensive second basemen is. See Manny Ramirez. Sit his ass on the bench if he wont play the outfield and dont pay him. He wont hit more than 20-25 homers this year anyway even if he plays the whole year and with his other numbers that is horrible.

dalmations202 · 03-21-2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Moving from second to left field isnt that damn big a deal.

There is a major problem with this thought. There is a major difference in pay, and other aspects of it. If I am a Doctor at a hospital, and I get hired there, and then I get asked to become the maintenance supervisor (at the same pay), I might balk as well.

Sori was good enough at 2nd base to get the largest $$ ever in arbitration. He has been to the All-Star game how many times? Now, he was judged in this arbitration by the position he plays and has played for the last 5 years.
You move him from a hitters park to a pitchers park, change his postion, and compare him to outfielders instead of 2nd basemen, and what is Sori worth now?

Sori is a better business person than most are giving him credit for. His max $$$ come if he stays at 2nd base and keeps being judged by other second basemen.

Man this makes the managment of Texas look smarter and smarter every day.

kg_veteran · 03-21-2006, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Man this makes the managment of Texas look smarter and smarter every day.

No doubt.

Five-ofan · 03-22-2006, 09:05 AM

But what does not playing at all do for his value? Other teams could still sign him as a second basemen if they wanted to. He is not an all star second basemen. He is an all star hitter that plays second base. There is a difference and vidro is a hell of alot better than sori at second. Anyway the question i have is if they wanted sori to play left why did they trade wilkerson who is better than sori and who would be an awesome defensive left fielder.

Murphy3 · 03-22-2006, 10:01 AM

Team's aren't dumb. They know what he is. They know that he's a butcher at second base. He becomes infinitely more valuable as a guy that's willing to do what's best for the team than he is as a guy that won't move away from a position that he cannot handle. It is completely in his best financial interest to move to the outfield. Otherwise, there just isn't a huge market for him... He's such a butcher at second base that very few if any teams would touch him with a 10 foot pole with the salary that he'd want.. Plus, teams realize that he has major offensive weaknesses that significantly indicate that many of his offensive numbers are a bit hollow.

Rhylan · 03-22-2006, 10:19 AM

Here's what I wanna know...

If Soriano is SO bad at second base (which statistics do support), then why in the hell was he permitted to play 2B for so long and break into the majors at 2B?

I'm sorry, but I can't blame the guy for being irritated with this. How many players come up through the minors, become an All-Star at a position, play in multiple playoffs and World Series, have individual and team success, and THEN have to contend with a world full of whiners saying you suck at your position?

If the guy is so damn bad, he should've been moved to OF a decade ago.

Drbio · 03-22-2006, 10:39 AM

F' Soriano. Either he honors his contract or he is placed on the DQ'd list. He will not accrue service time, he will still owe the Nats a year of contractual binding and he won't get paid. F' Soriano right up the pie hole.