Avery's Point guard neurosis - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

DevinFuture · 05-06-2007, 12:33 PM

This is from Mike Fisher at db.com

Quote:

Johnson said “we hope to have both’’ on the team next year, but even that expression of optimism should be interpreted as him being dubious about the situation. I’m been told he’s disappointed that one of them hasn’t become “Avery-like’’ on the floor, and Johnson alluded to that on Saturday.

“I can’t stand up and coach the point guard from the sideline for 47 minutes,’’ Johnson said. “You need a point guard.’’

Which at least suggests he thinks maybe Dallas doesn’t have one.

One of the best defensive point guards in the league also outplayed Jason Terry on offense in the Golden State series, and Avery still seems to think Devin and not Jason is the one who needs constant coaching. Avery is disappointed in Devin. I'm disappointed in Avery. He certainly doesn't need to coach Devin from the sideline for 47 inutes; that's just what he does. Maybe Avery does it because Poppavich was hard on him? Maybe he does it to Devin and not to Terry because Devin is young and reminds him of himself? Whatever the reason, it's not helping and it doesn't even make sense.

Avery has said previously that he thinks Devin is one of the best defensive point guards in the league. I think he is lying to himself there. If he really believed that, he would have had him in the game more often this season, instead of playing Jason Terry, Greg Buckner, and Devean George too many minutes.

Avery seems to think that Jet is an Avery player, but Devin is not. OK, maybe so, but I'd much rather have Devin on the Mavs. Maybe Avery is the problem. Devin Harris attacks the basket more than Terry, he draws contact better than Terry. He passes better than Terry. Devin defends better than Terry. Terry is definitely a better shooter, but that's about the only thing he does better than Devin.

When Devin attacks the basket consistently and Jason just settles for jumpshots, I don't see Avery getting upset at Jason. I don't ever see Avery get upset at Jason Terry. He must just always be an Avery player. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

TruthbHeard · 05-06-2007, 01:14 PM

I have faith in Harris, he has tremendous talent, if he can play 38 min per game, he would be a 16 pt, 7 ast, 2 stl per game guy. Terry should go, we need a good wing player who can play defense like rip hamilton or Joe Johnson, if dirk has to go so be it, as long as Jermaine or KG fill his boots, thats the only way a championship will come.

DubOverdose · 05-06-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TruthbHeard

I have faith in Harris, he has tremendous talent, if he can play 38 min per game, he would be a 16 pt, 7 ast, 2 stl per game guy. Terry should go, we need a good wing player who can play defense like rip hamilton or Joe Johnson, if dirk has to go so be it, as long as Jermaine or KG fill his boots, thats the only way a championship will come.

JO can't get a talented team in the East in to the playoffs. How would he be able to carry the Mavs further than Dirk?

SeattleMavsFan · 05-06-2007, 02:24 PM

lol i would cry if the mavs traded dirk for jermaine. that is an awful trade. like Duboverdose said, he can't carry a team in the east...no way he can in the west. KG wouldn't be bad possibly but the mavs are not going to trade dirk.

LonghornDub · 05-06-2007, 02:26 PM

I can't believe there are acutally people who have convinced themselves that Dirk for Jermaine would be a good trade for the Mavs.

jthig32 · 05-06-2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I can't believe there are acutally people who have convinced themselves that Dirk for Jermaine would be a good trade for the Mavs.

Yeah, kind of embarassing.

Dirkadirkastan · 05-06-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I can't believe there are acutally people who have convinced themselves that Dirk for Jermaine would be a good trade for the Mavs.

At least we get some comic relief in here.

GP · 05-06-2007, 03:02 PM

I agree with Avery wholeheartedly on this point guard thing. What the Mavs have needed for a couple of years is a coach on the floor type point guard. Someone who can control the tempo, make the entry pass, get the Mavs into their offense quickly and efficiently and someone who when the going gets tough handles the rock without the offense becoming stagnant, one dimensional or turnover prone. In other words, a guy just like Avery was when he was playing for the spurs. A tough, driven, competitive leader who the other players all listen to and respect and who controls the floor completely. The guy doesn't have to be spectacular or anything. In fact, someone like Brevin Knight would really put this team over the top as long as you pair him with a legit 2 and not a tweener. Excellent young point guards are out there to be had in the draft or acquired through other means. TJ Ford was acquired for Charlie Villaneuva and Utah drafted Deron Williams and were heavily criticized for it. I think NJ drafted an excellent young pg prospect near where Dallas drafted Ager. A pg is doable and they can keep both Devin and Terry if they want. Terry is still a premier shooter and Devin has many attributes. Just need a qb though.

StackAttack · 05-06-2007, 04:14 PM

I don't think we should worry about Devin not being on the roster next season. We were offered Allen Iverson for Devin Harris, essentially, and turned it away.

SeriousSummer · 05-06-2007, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

I don't think we should worry about Devin not being on the roster next season. We were offered Allen Iverson for Devin Harris, essentially, and turned it away.

but I would have done that deal in a second.

MavsX · 05-06-2007, 04:17 PM

dont trade devin, and dont trade dirk!

jthig32 · 05-06-2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

I don't think we should worry about Devin not being on the roster next season. We were offered Allen Iverson for Devin Harris, essentially, and turned it away.

That was during a historic regular season run.

I wouldn't be so sure now.

vjz · 05-06-2007, 05:41 PM

The thing that worries me is the amount of fouls Devin seems to pick up. The reason he doesn't get a lot of minutes is he is in foul trouble most of the time.

In contrast, see Tony Parker against the Suns in Game 1 today. (Of course, Bowen was guarding Nash, but still...)

chumdawg · 05-06-2007, 05:55 PM

The thing about Devin is that he has very, very little court awareness. This is a difficult thing to teach.

jthig32 · 05-06-2007, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The thing about Devin is that he has very, very little court awareness. This is a difficult thing to teach.

That's true, that's why I wonder if he's ever truly going to turn the corner as a distributor, and why I wouldn't be against moving him in the right deal.

And I love Devin, just look at the sig....

chumdawg · 05-06-2007, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

That's true, that's why I wonder if he's ever truly going to turn the corner as a distributor, and why I wouldn't be against moving him in the right deal.

And I love Devin, just look at the sig....

In watching the third quarter of Game Six again, I saw Harris completely whiff a switch that left Jackson wide open for a three and then absolutely not see a wide open Austin Croshere in the paint (he swung it to Stack instead, who immediately zipped it--too late--to Cro), in the span of a few minutes during the most important stretch of the season. To me he looked completely clueless of anything remotely approaching team basketball.

MavsX · 05-06-2007, 07:49 PM

1

MavsX · 05-06-2007, 07:55 PM

i see keep devin, lose Terry

MavsX · 05-06-2007, 07:55 PM

keep dirk, jho and devin..the rest trade away

dude1394 · 05-06-2007, 08:49 PM

Was avery really very good? I mean he may think he was but was he? From what I saw he was pretty damn pedestrian, armstrong like.

4cwebb · 05-06-2007, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Was avery really very good? I mean he may think he was but was he? From what I saw he was pretty damn pedestrian, armstrong like.

I think that's accurate --- the main difference is that Avery got to play with DRobinson & Duncan, so he had more of an opportunity to be a floor general. Since shooting was not the strong part of his game, he had to stay on the floor somehow, and knowing how to run an offense allowed him to do just that.

GP · 05-06-2007, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Was avery really very good? I mean he may think he was but was he? From what I saw he was pretty damn pedestrian, armstrong like.

I know you are talking about Avery's play as a point, but I think it is relevant to his coaching actions. I always thought he was very good at controlling the tempo and running the spur offense and just being a leader. I think your observation about Avery is applicable to his comments when he allegedly took all the blame for the teams playoff failure even though he used quite a few qualifiers.

I finally saw his comments on channel 5 sports tonight. Not only does he NOT accept blame that he is loudly proclaiming to but sounds like he is actually throwing the players under the bus. I think he honestly believes that he didn't make any mistakes and that this was all because Dirk lacked confidence. I am calling bullshit on that guy. It took a team to lose to the Warriors and the primary culprit was the coach. It is true that Avery can't accept blame for missed assignments, people missing open shots, etc. but he was plainly outcoached from the opening tip of the first game to the final buzzer in game 6. I thought he threw Dirk under the bus in the middle of the series and now I think he is putting the blame all on the players. Really, I just can't see this team ever winning with a coach like that. I think it really is to the credit of the players that none of them have quit on this guy. I am getting the feeling that something bad is going to happen this summer just to placate him.

chumdawg · 05-06-2007, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GP

I know you are talking about Avery's play as a point, but I think it is relevant to his coaching actions. I always thought he was very good at controlling the tempo and running the spur offense and just being a leader. I think your observation about Avery is applicable to his comments when he allegedly took all the blame for the teams playoff failure even though he used quite a few qualifiers.

I finally saw his comments on channel 5 sports tonight. Not only does he NOT accept blame that he is loudly proclaiming to but sounds like he is actually throwing the players under the bus. I think he honestly believes that he didn't make any mistakes and that this was all because Dirk lacked confidence. I am calling bullshit on that guy. It took a team to lose to the Warriors and the primary culprit was the coach. It is true that Avery can't accept blame for missed assignments, people missing open shots, etc. but he was plainly outcoached from the opening tip of the first game to the final buzzer in game 6. I thought he threw Dirk under the bus in the middle of the series and now I think he is putting the blame all on the players. Really, I just can't see this team ever winning with a coach like that. I think it really is to the credit of the players that none of them have quit on this guy. I am getting the feeling that something bad is going to happen this summer just to placate him.

It's starting to be par for the course for this organization.

Nash? Couldn't play anymore. Greedy.

Finley? Boo his ass.

Nellie? Despicable person.

Our bench last year? Fake depth. Didn't give anything when we need them.

Our players this year? Lacked confidence, lacked a killer instinct.

Always blame, blame, blame.

Dirk Nowitzki is the only stand-up guy among the big voices of this organization. He says he played a bad series. He apologizes. He says he feels sorry for the fans. He NEVER passes out blame...though he certainly could.

GP · 05-06-2007, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It's starting to be par for the course for this organization.

Nash? Couldn't play anymore. Greedy.

Finley? Boo his ass.

Nellie? Despicable person.

Our bench last year? Fake depth. Didn't give anything when we need them.

Our players this year? Lacked confidence, lacked a killer instinct.

Always blame, blame, blame.

Dirk Nowitzki is the only stand-up guy among the big voices of this organization. He says he played a bad series. He apologizes. He says he feels sorry for the fans. He NEVER passes out blame...though he certainly could.

I think you've got to add Terry to the list. He never makes excuses and always stays positive and upbeat. I think he is really a high quality player. If Cuban was smart he'd cut ties with Avery right now and go get Adelman. Avery was supposed to be a closer and has proven he couldn't get it done with Nellie's gift wrapped 60 win team. I think they are risking alienating Dirk to the point he decides to go somewhere else.

mkat · 05-07-2007, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GP

I think you've got to add Terry to the list. He never makes excuses and always stays positive and upbeat. I think he is really a high quality player. If Cuban was smart he'd cut ties with Avery right now and go get Adelman. Avery was supposed to be a closer and has proven he couldn't get it done with Nellie's gift wrapped 60 win team. I think they are risking alienating Dirk to the point he decides to go somewhere else.

oh come on.

avery took all the blame for what happened in this series.

terry isn't a high quality player. he is far too streaky to be considered that.

avery is a young coach. if anyone was really expecting to go to the finals last year they were insane. he's a YOUNG coach. he has a bright future ahead of him.

4cwebb · 05-07-2007, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkat

oh come on.

avery took all the blame for what happened in this series.

terry isn't a high quality player. he is far too streaky to be considered that.

avery is a young coach. if anyone was really expecting to go to the finals last year they were insane. he's a YOUNG coach. he has a bright future ahead of him.

I agree that Avery probably has a bright future ahead of him, but he did start out with one of the most "ready to win" situations for a young head coach. And even if people shouldn't have expected to go the finals last year, does that make up for not going to the finals when it was almost rightfully expected this year?

Big Shot Rob · 05-07-2007, 01:03 AM

Man I am conflicted on the subject of AJ.

He is one of my favorite people in the NBA.

But I have a real problem with the wayb that he openly was critical of Dirk to the media while the series was still going on. If he wanted to be critical of the team as a whole, that's one thing. To do so to your franchise player is a mistake, in my opinion.

As much as I hate to admit it--I think AJ was outcoached by Nellie.

Lor20 · 05-07-2007, 02:00 AM

yeah and really - dirk of all people doesnt need his coach to critisize him. I mean openly bashing someone for showing a lack of confidence? thats gonna help ur confidence? if it was aggressiveness then i could understand such a move but he was talking about confidence...
i think avery got thrown in the shark tank a little too early - he shoulda stayed an assistant for another 2 or 3 years under a different coach.

LonghornDub · 05-07-2007, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It's starting to be par for the course for this organization.

Nash? Couldn't play anymore. Greedy.

Finley? Boo his ass.

Nellie? Despicable person.

Our bench last year? Fake depth. Didn't give anything when we need them.

Our players this year? Lacked confidence, lacked a killer instinct.

Always blame, blame, blame.

Dirk Nowitzki is the only stand-up guy among the big voices of this organization. He says he played a bad series. He apologizes. He says he feels sorry for the fans. He NEVER passes out blame...though he certainly could.

Chum did you not see Avery's interview yesterday where he said 3-4 times that "99% of the blame has to go on me"?

I fail to see the blame, blame, blame. And Cuban stuck behind Dirk 110%, so I don't see really who he's blaming either.

come_on_now · 05-07-2007, 03:05 AM

Coaches are hardest on those that have the most potential. The guy you can yell it is the one you can count on.

DevinFuture · 05-07-2007, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vjz

The thing that worries me is the amount of fouls Devin seems to pick up. The reason he doesn't get a lot of minutes is he is in foul trouble most of the time.

In contrast, see Tony Parker against the Suns in Game 1 today. (Of course, Bowen was guarding Nash, but still...)

This is a valid point. Devin does pick up too many fouls. It seems like he gets no respect on the calls, but he still should probably tone it down a bit.
But Devin's foul trouble does not explain away ALL of his lack of court time.

Avery doesn't trust him. He'd rather have Jason Terry running the offense with George or Buckner at the 2 for long stretches of the game.

Neither Jason Terry nor Devin Harris the the point guard Avery wants; the difference is in how he treats them based on this. With Terry, he accepts this and just tries to get what he can out of him; with Harris, he spends 2/3 of the game yelling at him and undermining his confidence. It's kind of hard to get better at court vision when you have to keep looking over your shoulder listening to your coach on every play as you keep your dribble and try to run the team.

Pirate · 05-07-2007, 10:02 AM

I think Harris' lack of court time is almost entirely due to foul problems. The tendency to pick up cheapies forces Avery to keep him idle in reserve at times for use down the stretch.

kg_veteran · 05-07-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirate

I think Harris' lack of court time is almost entirely due to foul problems. The tendency to pick up cheapies forces Avery to keep him idle in reserve at times for use down the stretch.

Harris' foul trouble. That's an interesting subject. I think the reason that Harris picks up so many cheap fouls is that his defensive mentor was the original Super Spare. A lot of times he's too busy trying to pick up charges and chest bump people to just play great positional defense -- something which he is entirely capable of doing ALL the time.

GP · 05-07-2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

Chum did you not see Avery's interview yesterday where he said 3-4 times that "99% of the blame has to go on me"?

I fail to see the blame, blame, blame. And Cuban stuck behind Dirk 110%, so I don't see really who he's blaming either.

Are you serious? They showed the whole clip on channel 5 and he was doing the exact opposite of taking blame. Yeah, those words came out of his mouth but he also had a few terse comments about it being his fault that people missed shots, that it was his fault that people blew their assignments and yada, yada, yada. He was basically saying the team lost because Jason Terry didn't hit shots and Dirk played like a coward and that his coaching was just fine.