Hollinger grades the Kidd trade - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Fidel · 02-23-2008, 12:33 AM

"Feb. 19: Dallas signs Keith Van Horn

Dallas trades Van Horn, Devin Harris, Trenton Hassell, Maurice Ager, DeSagana Diop, first-round draft choices in 2008 and 2010, and cash considerations to New Jersey for Jason Kidd, Malik Allen and Antoine Wright

Dallas waives Nick Fazekas

For Dallas: A "makeup" trade for a failed deal involving Jerry Stackhouse and Devean George instead of Hassell and Van Horn, this version cost Mark Cuban $11 million more, counting salary and taxes, but looks almost as questionable.

Kidd didn't exactly calm doubts in his Dallas return, getting abused by the Hornets' Chris Paul, which was exactly the fear of Mavs fans when they traded their top perimeter defender in Harris. And Kidd's six turnovers were another example of something I've been harping on for a while -- Kidd has become increasingly mistake-prone this season.

Dallas wanted this trade as much for the locker room as the court, and I don't want to minimize that aspect of the deal. Just because it can't be measured doesn't mean it isn't there. But to give up two first-rounders (the second unprotected) and a quality post defender in Diop for what may not even be an upgrade at the point seems a stretch. Grade: C-

For New Jersey: It's tough to rebuild much better than this. The Nets got a rising second-tier star at the point in Harris, two first-rounders, a couple expiring deals, and a salary savings right off the top -- all for a 34-year-old guard, with a $20 million cap number, whose numbers are down this year. And as an added bonus -- yes, the hair gel and high socks are back in The Swamp! It's hard for me to imagine a better deal than that. Grade: A"

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Guess I have to agree. The Mavs got robbed. They gave up way too much, and I´m also not sure about Kidd being such an upgrade. Sure he´s a way better playmaker than Harris. But at this point he´s nowhere near the defender or scorer that Harris is. Which leads to another problem. Now we got Kidd, fine. But for him to be utilized to his potential you also need people who can finish.

Other then Dirk I don´t see anyone on the Mavs being able to do that consistently. Howard is overrated IMO. I hate that AJ just gives him the green light. Howard is a mental midget, he´ll probably never be able to deliver when it counts. Stack never was a good shooter and he´s only getting worse. Terry´s too streaky and not really good without the ball in his hands. Damp can´t even catch the ball. Overall you have Dirk and a has been world class pointguard who´s getting old and can´t score. I don´t think that´s enough. IMO we should have kept Harris, Diop and the picks and try to add more pieces. We should have been patient while this deal seemed to be forced. Doing a deal just because your team seems to be stagnating and you just want to do a deal is never a good idea. Should have been patient and if management was so desperate they should have tried to hire a good coach instead of doing such a panik deal.

Dirkadirkastan · 02-23-2008, 12:42 AM

Looks like someone didn't watch the game tonight.

robo98564 · 02-23-2008, 12:46 AM

Im still weary of this trade because of the effect it could have on our long term, but JKidd did look pretty stout tonight... LOVED the Damp no-looker as well. SWEET!

Although this was only a game against the Grizz, I was definitely a lot happier with what we saw tonight versus what we saw a few nights ago...

Whether the Mavs can win a title or not, I'm still gonna be pissed that I have an authentic Devin Harris jersey that I can't wear now!!! haha

Fidel · 02-23-2008, 12:47 AM

I did watch it. We played the now 14-41 Grizz. I´m not judging by any of the two games played with Kidd so far. Like I said Kidd is a great PG. But IMO he´s too old and we don´t have the team that would max his potential (athletes, guys who can finish). If I´m wrong and we do win it all with Kidd I´ll be as happy as anyone and will be quick to admit I was wrong. I just doubt it happens.

LonghornDub · 02-23-2008, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidel

I did watch it. We played the now 14-41 Grizz. I´m not judging by any of the two games played with Kidd so far. Like I said Kidd is a great PG. But IMO he´s too old and we don´t have the team that would max his potential (athletes, guys who can finish). If I´m wrong and we do win it all with Kidd I´ll be as happy as anyone and will be quick to admit I was wrong. I just doubt it happens.

We played that same Grizzlies team twice in the past month and had about half as many assists as a team. So what does that have to do with anything?

GermanDunk · 02-23-2008, 12:50 AM

But Memphis only has 14 wins - 41 losses. I´m looking forward to watch how they will play against the real big numbers.

Dirkadirkastan · 02-23-2008, 12:53 AM

It's sad when our boys make passes we've never seen them make before and all everyone says is "it's the Grizzlies". Why didn't they do that the last time we played the Grizzlies then? This team is adopting a new style and adjusting to it well. Even against an easy opponent, it's very encouraging.

robo98564 · 02-23-2008, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

It's sad when our boys make passes we've never seen them make before and all everyone says is "it's the Grizzlies". Why didn't they do that the last time we played the Grizzlies then? This team is adopting a new style and adjusting to it well. Even against an easy opponent, it's very encouraging.

Agreed.... It was not so much exciting to watch Kidd make the passes as it was to see everyone else get involved. Crappy opponent? Yes, but you can only play who's on your schedule, and we have lost to our fair share of crappy opponents this year...

Tokey41 · 02-23-2008, 12:57 AM

So Hollinger gives the Mavs a C- in the trade... Rosen gives us an A... yeah that confirms it, i'm pretty content with my stance on this subject.

dude1394 · 02-23-2008, 01:01 AM

Somehow I don't think we would have looked as good with JJB running the point as we did with the guy who's been with the team for 2 games. Just me, but I don't think so.

Fidel · 02-23-2008, 01:02 AM

Well yeah the passing was nice. The assists were nice. Still it was only the Grizz. I´m as curios as anyone to see us play some real teams with Kidd. But the trade, I just don´t like it. I think we gave up too much. Also I did like Harris alot. I think we should have given him at least this full season to see where the team can go with him. He still has got lots of potential while Kidd is on the decline. I also disagree that the Mavs window was closing (one of the often heard pro Kidd arguments). Dirk should be able to play at least 3-4 more seasons at a very high level. That´s plenty of time.

chumdawg · 02-23-2008, 01:02 AM

You need to develop a filter for stuff like Hollinger, or whoever else. You need to keep your own brain still working.

Anyone with a working brain tonight saw what Kidd brings this team.

twelli · 02-23-2008, 01:03 AM

Based on the two games so far with Kidd in the line-up, I think the biggest difference is/will be leadership on the floor. Kidd might be aging, but he knows were the ball needs to go to score easy baskets. And the other guys will follow his lead. There was no one to follow before, really. Now the roles are more clearly defined and there will be less individual action but more passing and using the whole floor. I like it.

Anyone can make open shots and once the players get used to Kidd we will see lots of them. I expect guys like Jones, George, Stack, and Terry making a lot of 3-pointers after receiving a pass from Kidd. Dirk will have more catch-and-shoot action allowing him to score before the double teams have a chance to arrive.

chumdawg · 02-23-2008, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidel

Well yeah the passing was nice. The assists were nice. Still it was only the Grizz. I´m as curios as anyone to see us play some real teams with Kidd. But the trade, I just don´t like it. I think we gave up too much. Also I did like Harris alot. I think we should have given him at least this full season to see where the team can go with him. He still has got lots of potential while Kidd is on the decline. I also disagree that the Mavs window was closing (one of the often heard pro Kidd arguments). Dirk should be able to play at least 3-4 more seasons at a very high level. That´s plenty of time.

Harris has the potential to be about half the player Kidd is today. That IS his upside. He's a combo guard, pure and simple. He's not a point guard.

Kidd may be on the decline, but at what rate? It certainly seems that Kidd is STILL many times the PG that Harris could EVER be...and that it will be a few years before that goes away.

LRB · 02-23-2008, 01:09 AM

Hollinger is an idiot.

Tokey41 · 02-23-2008, 01:09 AM

Hollinger is the only writer I take even remotely seriously, i'm just glad he can articulate the problems with this trade better than I ever could.

Tonight was a great game though, shows a glimpse of what this team can be (albeit against one of the worst teams in the league, but a win is a win). I'm looking forward to more offense like that from Kidd.

Fidel · 02-23-2008, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Harris has the potential to be about half the player Kidd is today. That IS his upside. He's a combo guard, pure and simple. He's not a point guard.

Kidd may be on the decline, but at what rate? It certainly seems that Kidd is STILL many times the PG that Harris could EVER be...and that it will be a few years before that goes away.

Sure Harris is totally different player. But to say his potential is being half the player Kidd is today is just way off. Kidd is a 15 and 10 guy and he gets lots of rebounds. Given the minutes Harris can be a 20 and 7 guy, and a top notch defender. Totally different player obviously but still very valuable. Also the Kidd of now has alot of downsides. He can´t score, he´s not the defender he used to be and he´s TO prone.

And who says you need a "true" PG to win it all? Lot´s of teams have proven you don´t.

chumdawg · 02-23-2008, 01:25 AM

Harris will take his production AWAY from the rest of the team. Kidd will ADD his production TO his team's. And that is the difference.

Anyone can throw numbers up there. Antoine Walker filled a stat sheet when he was here. You have to get deeper than that.

Dirkadirkastan · 02-23-2008, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Harris has the potential to be about half the player Kidd is today. That IS his upside. He's a combo guard, pure and simple. He's not a point guard.

Kidd may be on the decline, but at what rate? It certainly seems that Kidd is STILL many times the PG that Harris could EVER be...and that it will be a few years before that goes away.

Age is just a number.

I'll believe Kidd is on the decline when I see it.

For now, I'll take 15 assists, thank you.

Dirkadirkastan · 02-23-2008, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You need to develop a filter for stuff like Hollinger, or whoever else. You need to keep your own brain still working.

Anyone with a working brain tonight saw what Kidd brings this team.

Hollinger doesn't watch any games.

Fidel · 02-23-2008, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Harris will take his production AWAY from the rest of the team. Kidd will ADD his production TO his team's. And that is the difference.

Anyone can throw numbers up there. Antoine Walker filled a stat sheet when he was here. You have to get deeper than that.

Well we just disagree then. IMO Harris just is productive in a different kind of way. Sure he´s not yet the leader Kidd is and yes he´s not a true PG who shines by making others better. But comparing him to Walker well you need to get deeper than that...

Harris is a pretty efficient scorer at 48% (makes him 7th among PG) and we´ll surely miss that. He´s also capable of dishing out 7-8 assists if he gets around 38 mins of playing. That´s not so bad for a non PG PG. And you don´t get assists for nothing. So yeah they are different players, but if you add his D to what was said above Harris obviously can be a very valuable player too and Antoine Walker he is not.

Tokey41 · 02-23-2008, 01:49 AM

The second best writer on ESPN also agrees that this trade isn't deserving of so much high praise...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...simmons/080223

EricaLubarsky · 02-23-2008, 01:52 AM

Kidd is a better defender even now than Harris.

There I said it.

Kidd funnels driving players better, he makes them more uncomfortable and he knows where to be and he doesnt just use his speed to backpedal, set his feet adn try to draw a charge.

He also rebounds better, which seems pointless on a team that has such good rebounders but his presence, insight and energy help secure loose balls and rebounds and set a standard for hustle.

And as far as Im concerned the argument "he's nowhere near the scorer that Harris is", I think that is laughable. Fans and writers may be pessimistic about this team but we have the reigning MVP, Josh Howard, one of the finer sharp shooters (named Terry), and guys like George and Jones that can knock down threes. We have more than enough scoring.

I call Kidd BASF because of their slogan: "we dont make the products you buy. We make the products you buy better."

He doesnt score, he makes the scorers we have...better.

mkat · 02-23-2008, 01:55 AM

you can't grade it this early. sorry.

twelli · 02-23-2008, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidel

IMO Harris just is productive in a different kind of way. Sure he´s not yet the leader Kidd is and yes he´s not a true PG who shines by making others better.

And that's exactly the reason why he was replaced by Kidd. Looking at the goal of the team this season and the next, Harris wasn't going to give the Mavs what they need NOW. The Mavs want to win it all now with Dirk in his prime and with a team that has played well together for the last couple of seasons but missing something to get over the final hurdle. Bottomline is, Harris hasn't progressed, for whatever reason, as fast as Cuban and Avery had hoped for. It's a huge gamble (one Dirk or Kidd injury could destroy the whole plan), but it's kind of getting everyone excited and breathes in new life into a kind of stagnant situation.

LRB · 02-23-2008, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidel

Sure Harris is totally different player. But to say his potential is being half the player Kidd is today is just way off. Kidd is a 15 and 10 guy and he gets lots of rebounds. Given the minutes Harris can be a 20 and 7 guy, and a top notch defender. Totally different player obviously but still very valuable. Also the Kidd of now has alot of downsides. He can´t score, he´s not the defender he used to be and he´s TO prone.

And who says you need a "true" PG to win it all? Lot´s of teams have proven you don´t.

Harris is not a top notch defender. Exactly how many all nba defensive teams has he made? 1 less than J Kidd made last year. Harris is as overrated as a defender as Kidd is underrated. Harris is quick, can take a few charges, has good hands. But he's also a mental midget basketball IQ wise. He doesn't have the size to guard a physical PG much less a big swingman. But what keeps Harris from being a top level defender more than anything else is his foul proneness. He can't guard jack squat while sitting on the bench.

Another myth is that Kidd is slow. Kidd is quick. He's not as quick as Harris or some of the fastest PG's in the league, but his is quicker than most. Furthermore Kidd is one of the smartest defenders in the league period. He's head and shoulders better than Harris as a team defender. Even against the quicker guards one on one Kidd still is better than Harris over the course of a game and especially during the final minutes of a close game because of his basketball IQ.

Kidd does more than just get some rebounds. He makes the mavs one of the elite rebounding teams in the league. Defense doesn't make jack squat if the other shoots misses and then gets an offensive rebound.

Harris might be able to average 20 and 7. But look to him to have more TO's than Kidd while doing it. Harris' assist to To ratio is crappy compared to Kidd's, mainly because he's not an elite ball handler nor is a very good passer. Harris is a good ball handler and a good passer, but so are a bunch of others in the league. Harris only really stands out with his speed. And it remains to be seen if his fragile body can handle the knocks it takes to average 20 and 7 over the course of a season.

Harris has had 3 post season runs and still wasn't able to get it done with this core group of players. Kidd is a major upgrade. You may not need a "true" PG to win it all, but adding one of the greatest players of all time at his postion certainly would seem to help.

GP · 02-23-2008, 02:18 AM

Good thread guys. I agree with both LRB and Erica on this topic. In my opinion Kidd is the far better player. I like the way Kidd plays on both sides of the ball way better than Harris. For a guy that was supposed to be a defensive stopper he sure seemed to be pretty bad at doing anything other than flopping, which is a skill I loathe. I think we'll really start to see the full benefits of this trade in a few weeks as the team gels. The more I think about the better I like the trade. Sure, the Mavs gave up a lot by including the 2 1st rounders and the cash but this team really doesn't need any more Moe Agers anyway. The more I think about it the more I think the Mavs absolutely had to make this trade, especially since both the Lakers and the Suns improved their teams so much.

bernardos70 · 02-23-2008, 02:41 AM

Hollinger............. F*CK your PER, buddy.

G-Man · 02-23-2008, 03:56 AM

I'm on record opposing the trade, but my caveat was that I rarely saw Kidd play and had a hard time imagining him still beiing that good. In recent years, Devin blew by him like he was standing still and he was not very impressive.

Apparently I was flat out wrong. I sure hope so.
As for Hollinger's crap. Mavs 1st round draft picks are so low, they just aren't worth much. We haven't drafted a keeper since Howard.

Harris' numbers may top Kidd's, and his speed allows him to take over games and score at will, as well as defend guys like Parker and Barbosa that Kidd lacks the foot speed to keep up with. But he is also frail. As much as anything his injuries have stunted his progress and cost this team big time. The losses since he got hurt this last time dropped us from 1st to 5th. I'll always wonder how much better that Finals run might have been if he hadnt missed almost half the season.

Kidd's assists need to make up about 12 points a night, for the reduced scoring and the points he gives up. 15 asists more than does that.

And as far as the future. When Jersey is cashing in that second pick, Dallas will have 20 million coming off the books. We ought to be able to buy some pretty good future with that.

Hollinger. I'm always amazed how a guy so smart with numbers reaches so many bad conclusions.

I could now see Kidd doing more for us than Nash does for PHX, because our players can do more things. For example, Amare is awesome, but only at dunks and short jumpers. Dirk can play low post, high post , spot up, drive and shoot over people. I think we are just 1 backup big away...

Dirkadirkastan · 02-23-2008, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Simmons

Still, it's his creativity and consistency on fast breaks that make him special ... and that's what confused me about the trade from Dallas' end. Have you watched the Mavs? Who's running with Kidd on that team other than Howard? Dirk is slow. Erick Dampier is slow. Terry doesn't go within 20 feet of the basket. Stack stopped running five years ago. Who's left?

Ha!

horse900703 · 02-23-2008, 08:47 AM

I llike J kidd now~~~~

Bookit · 02-23-2008, 09:15 AM

The one huge positive from this trade is Kidd and Terry can be on the floor at the same time. If Avery keeps it that way and there aren't any major injuries, this trade will help this season and next. I just don't like giving up the 2010 first round pick.

V2M · 02-23-2008, 09:35 AM

One point I haven't seen mentioned a lot in the media is that the combination of Devin's size, speed and style of play makes him highly injury-prone!

On offense, he drives to the basket with reckless abandon. On defense, he attempts to take charges on almost every other play. It's almost like he's always only 1 play away from being gone for the season!

I'm wondering if the Mavs' MBT haven't considered that as well when they pulled the trigger on this trade.

jthig32 · 02-23-2008, 09:54 AM

I have to say, after two games of watching Kidd on this team, I think the question about defense between Kidd and Harris is a wash, at the worst.

Kidd is a fantastic team defender still, and while I disagree that he makes PG's more uncomfortable than Harris, he also has the flexibility to do more than just flop in the post when switched on to bigger guys.

If the defense is a wash, at the worst, then that changes my perspective of the trade completely.

I still think some people around here are selling Harris awfully short. He is no more a combo guard than Tony Parker is.

However, I fall more in love with this trade every day.

EricaLubarsky · 02-23-2008, 09:59 AM

Heres a remarkable fact

11 months

Thats the difference between the "over the hill" Jason Kidd and the vivacious Steve Nash.

Dave McNulla · 02-23-2008, 10:00 AM

on hollinger's side is that he just uses stats, he's got no bias in what he writes. against him is that he never does a sanity test for the stats that he places importance on - like he places so much on a teams record and point differential without considering that some teams (ahem, spurs) always improve in the second half of the season.

if stats were so great, statisticians could make a killing on the stock market. but they flounder like everybody else.

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-23-2008, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Heres a remarkable fact

11 months

Thats the difference between the "over the hill" Jason Kidd and the vivacious Steve Nash.

Hey! I pointed that out a couple times, just in different words

. I said the best way to look at Kidd is like having next year's Nash....cept Kidd can rebound and play defense.

Jack.Kerr · 02-23-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Heres a remarkable fact

11 months

Thats the difference between the "over the hill" Jason Kidd and the vivacious Steve Nash.

Right, but....Kidd as two more full seasons (a couple of which were Finals appearances), and about 12,000 more minutes, not to mention a micro-fracture surgery.

Not unfair to say that Kidd has some mileage on him.

Dr.Zoidberg · 02-23-2008, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I still think some people around here are selling Harris awfully short. He is no more a combo guard than Tony Parker is.

Here I have to agree with you. Parker isn´t a real point guard, in the proper meaning of the word, either. He is like Devin a great penetrator with outstanding quickness and can shoot, but has not very good passing or playmaking abilities. He only has an assists average of 6 after playing his 7th year now. And I think such kind of point guards work best with very good post up players like Duncan, whereas teams including great shooters like Dirk are better with a disher and creator as point guard (to take advantage of the biggest strength of Dirk: shooting).

EricaLubarsky · 02-23-2008, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

Right, but....Kidd as two more full seasons (a couple of which were Finals appearances), and about 12,000 more minutes, not to mention a micro-fracture surgery.

Not unfair to say that Kidd has some mileage on him.

no more than your mom. compared to her, Kidd is a spring chicken.