Jimmy Carter

[dude1394]

I'm sorry, I'm so,so,so very sorry. Please forgive me...I didn't know what I was doing..Trust me, I'll never vote for another democrat...Please, please, forgive me.

America's worst president strikes again...

It's a known fact that Jimmy Carter is not a fan of Israel but to release this kind of information is very troubling- even for a Democrat.
The Times Online reported:

Israel has 150 nuclear weapons in its arsenal, former President Jimmy Carter said yesterday, while arguing that the US should talk directly to Iran to persuade it to drop its nuclear ambitions.

His remark, made at the Hay-on-Wye festival which promotes current affairs books and literature, is startling because Israel has never admitted having nuclear weapons, let alone how many, although the world assumes their existence. Nor do US officials deviate in public from that Israeli line. Carter, who has immersed himself since his presidency in Israeli-Palestinian relations, was highly critical of Israeli settlers on the West Bank, and of Israel's refusal to talk to elected officials of the Islamic party Hamas, although he said that Israel's security was his prime concern.

Let's hope this man is not privy to any more national secrets.

[jefelump]

Carter should apply for a job with the New York Times, he would fit in quite well.

[alexamenos]

His remark...is startling because Israel has never admitted having nuclear weapons.

I honestly don't understand why this is startling.

I mean, I can got to the Federation of American Scientist website and see estimates that Israel has between 100-200 nukes, so it's not like this is some top-secret, even if Israel doesn't admit it.

Is his statement startling because it's a "political gaffe" in the classic sense -- an inconvenient acknowledgement of the truth?

[kappasigma]

nothing new here, israel is the cause of the mid - east crisis, and can be considered more of a reason 9/11 happened than anything iraq ever did. we support israel because, well our media and lobbiest are all jewish controlled and incase you didn't know it, the jews don't consider america their homeland. they will die for israel and make america a tool for empowering israel. we are a puppet to the jews. we support them with money, tools and equipment. we fight their fights for them. we don't even know it. just do some research. all politicians have said (including hilary) that its career sucicide not to support them because of the political hand of the jews.

i hope this is nothing new. we work and die to support a country who has never given us anything. please don't try to argue with me. the truth is the truth and can be varified. please do your research.


"On October 3, 2001, I.A.P. News reported that according to Israel Radio (in Hebrew) Kol Yisrael an acrimonious argument erupted during the Israeli cabinet weekly session last week between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his foreign Minister Shimon Peres. Peres warned Sharon that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and "turn the US against us. "Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying "don't worry about American pressure, we the Jewish people control America.""

http://www.blacklistednews.com/view.asp?ID=1263

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-controlledpress-folder.html

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bushlist.htm

http://www.mediamonitors.net/khodr49.html

[alexamenos]

ok, for the record, i'm not the jews run everything....

i'm just saying that the notion that Israel has a formidable nuclear arsenal isn't all that controversial and it's not at all obvious to me why "US officials" should be expected to toe-the-line on Israel's policy of deliberate ambiguity on the matter.

[kappasigma]

because if they don't, they will be blackballed! btw, they don't run everything...only things important to them like money and politics.

can you say " i pledge allegiance to the israeli flag & happy hanukkah bitche$"

[sike]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

please don't try to argue with me. the truth is the truth and can be varified.

I'm sorry, but this is the part I found most...uh....interesting.

And here I thought we supported Israel due to our Nations long standing (Christian) ideal that supporting Israel is a good thing. (Over simplification admittedly)

[sike]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

because if they don't, they will be blackballed! btw, they don't run everything...only things important to them like money and politics.

can you say " i pledge allegiance to the israeli flag & happy hanukkah bitche$"

this is a pretty racist post.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

nothing new here, israel is the cause of the mid - east crisis, and can be considered more of a reason 9/11 happened than anything iraq ever did. we support israel because, well our media and lobbiest are all jewish controlled and incase you didn't know it, the jews don't consider america their homeland. they will die for israel and make america a tool for empowering israel. we are a puppet to the jews. we support them with money, tools and equipment. we fight their fights for them. we don't even know it. just do some research. all politicians have said (including hilary) that its career sucicide not to support them because of the political hand of the jews.

i hope this is nothing new. we work and die to support a country who has never given us anything. please don't try to argue with me. the truth is the truth and can be varified. please do your research.


"On October 3, 2001, I.A.P. News reported that according to Israel Radio (in Hebrew) Kol Yisrael an acrimonious argument erupted during the Israeli cabinet weekly session last week between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his foreign Minister Shimon Peres. Peres warned Sharon that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and "turn the US against us. "Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying "don't worry about American pressure, we the Jewish people control America.""

http://www.blacklistednews.com/view.asp?ID=1263

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-controlledpress-folder.html

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bushlist.htm

http://www.mediamonitors.net/khodr49.html

This could have come right out of Mein Kampf...racist as s***.

[Arne]

His remark, made at the Hay-on-Wye festival which promotes current affairs books and literature, is startling because Israel has never admitted having nuclear weapons

Not true. I definetely saw one minister saying they have them and they would use them if necessary.

Anyways, it's an open secret. So what's the whole problem?

[Underdog]

As a Jew, I agree 100% with Kappasigma - Israel is no good...


Zionists have defied God by establishing a "Jewish" state before the final destruction of Jerusalem (as predicted in the Torah) and God will punish them for it (probably in the form of an Iranian nuke...)

Honestly, it would serve all non-Jews well to stay the hell out of this issue - I'm sick of hearing the term "antisemitic" every time rational people attack a terrorist state like Israel... Their government is NOT Jewish - they're heretics guilty of pride in the Eyes of God and will be dealt with accordingly...

Christians would be wise not to get caught-up in Jewish affairs - God has a tendency to deal His Wrath in very broad strokes...


Jews Against Zionism

[kappasigma]

at least someone understands, i'm not against jews, christ was jewish, jordan farmer is jewish, mark cuban is jewish. i'm against the israeli state and the u.s. having to support this state. i'm against being involved in a holy war that is not going to end for a very very long time. i'm also against being in the middle east or any other part of the world that does not need us unless there is a natural distaster. i'm not into having friends die for other people's wars. let them all nuke each other, lets stay away. lets spend money on securing the border so that we don't have illegals named juan killing people in arlington and having no records for the police to be able to trace them. lets stop the illegal drugs that come in the country every day and causes middle schoolers to experiment with cheese because their parents are not home to guide them cause cost of living is so high.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by kappasigma

at least someone understands, i'm not against jews, christ was jewish, jordan farmer is jewish, mark cuban is jewish. i'm against the israeli state and the u.s. having to support this state. i'm against being involved in a holy war that is not going to end for a very very long time. i'm also against being in the middle east or any other part of the world that does not need us unless there is a natural distaster. i'm not into having friends die for other people's wars. let them all nuke each other, lets stay away. lets spend money on securing the border so that we don't have illegals named juan killing people in arlington and having no records for the police to be able to trace them. lets stop the illegal drugs that come in the country every day and causes middle schoolers to experiment with cheese because their parents are not home to guide them cause cost of living is so high.

Zionists love to toss the word "goyim" around...

"Goyim" means "non-Jew" but the direct translation is "cattle"...



Q. What did the American Christian soldier say as he lay dying in the Iraqi desert?

A. "Mooooooo!"




[if what I just said pisses any of you off, then you're finally starting to understand...]

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Honestly, it would serve all non-Jews well to stay the hell out of this issue....

this is my preferred course of action.

[Flacolaco]

Ok, but that's not the intended issue of the thread.

That being, don't tell Jimmy Carter any of your secrets, he might blurt them out in front of a microphone.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

That being, don't tell Jimmy Carter any of your secrets, he might blurt them out in front of a microphone.

Jimmy Carter told everyone that I was sleeping with Star Jones...

[Flacolaco]

You're Dwyane Wade?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

You're Dwyane Wade?

Shhhh - I already have enough enemies around here!

[sike]

get a little racist commentary and the thread gets hijacked....

[wmbwinn]

THE BOOK OF THE PROPHET
ISAIAH
CHAPTER 49

1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 ¶ And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13 ¶ Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
14 But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
18 ¶ Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the Lord, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
24 ¶ Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
25 But thus saith the Lord, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

THE BOOK OF THE PROPHET
ISAIAH
CHAPTER 49

1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 ¶ And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13 ¶ Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
14 But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
18 ¶ Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the Lord, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
24 ¶ Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
25 But thus saith the Lord, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Hah...that's a good one!

[wmbwinn]

Dude, I'm afraid my post might be a thread buster. I am not sure if any will be brave enough to say more at this point...

I am not sure how many understand it anyway.

The entire chapter could have been bolded. I just went straight to the point.

Sorry if I shut down the thread by scaring everyone away...

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

Dude, I'm afraid my post might be a thread buster. I am not sure if any will be brave enough to say more at this point...

I am not sure how many understand it anyway.

The entire chapter could have been bolded. I just went straight to the point.

Sorry if I shut down the thread by scaring everyone away...

I, for one, am not sure I understand the point. I'm curious, though. Care to give the Reader's Digest version?

[dude1394]

I don't understand it either. Sounds like a pretty typical wrath of the lord, smiting left and smiting right.

[Flacolaco]

22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
24 ¶ Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
25 But thus saith the Lord, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Something about lifting his hand up to the genitals.

[mary]

Mark Cuban is Jewish?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Something about lifting his hand up to the genitals.

LOL..

[jefelump]

My interpretation, for what it's worth:

22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.

Isaiah refers to the Gentiles as those not of Jewish descent. By setting up "my standard to the people", he's referring to Israel. When he says "they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and they daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders", he's prophesying that Israel will be supported and uplifted by the Gentiles. Translation: You can say the US is the puppet to Israel, and that may be so, but it was prophesied.

23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

More of the same. By saying "they shall not be ashamed that wait for me", sounds like there is no shame in backing Israel.

24 ¶ Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
25 But thus saith the Lord, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered:

Israel is the "prey of the terrible". The captive/prey shall be delivered.

for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

If Iran wants to F___ with Israel, God will F___ with Iran

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I, for one, am not sure I understand the point. I'm curious, though. Care to give the Reader's Digest version?

There is no readers digest version of Isaiah.
I'll take a stab at it but I cannot be concise.

"1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God. "

First, lets identify who is who.
"The Lord hath called me". Verse 3 answers the question as to who Isaiah is speaking on behalf of. "Me" is "my servant, O Israel"

Verse 4 is the typical wailing of Lamentations for the loss of Israel and the destructions that lead to the scattering of Israel and the sacking of Jerusalem (repeatedly,North Kingdom carried away into Syria and then dispersed by later wars from there, Nebuchadnezzar next, then a part returns and is eventually also driven out in defeat). Isaiah (speaking as Israel) says that "My judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God" meaning that Israel is lost but its works [and salvation] are to be judged by God.

5 ¶ And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Now, we have to realize that Isaiah has shifted gears. He indicates that "thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob". Jacob=Israel as to the genetic family and heritage. So, we are now talking about scattered/dispersed Israel and the prophets that struggled to save Israel/maintain Israel. "I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles". Perhaps a Messianic reference. If you are Jew, you can read it some other way. No matter, the reference that the light would go to the Gentile is plain to see. And, the fact that the light would go to the Gentile seems to be important "that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." The light to the Gentiles was an extension of "thou" who is Israel/Jacob. And, this extension to the Gentile would play a role in "restore [ing] the preserved of Israel".

"Though Israel be not gathered [from the scattering noted above], yet shall I (light of Israel, message of God, Truth, you pick a similar description) be glorious in the eyes of the Lord". The work of God moved to the Gentiles. The mission of the Gentile is to "restore the preserved of Israel". The servant is the Gentiles. The Gentiles are bringing back to Israel and starting the gathering process.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13 ¶ Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.


The above is a description of the gathering of Israel from its long dispersion. The long dispersed will inherit the "desolate heritages" (a reference to the parts of the world where they were dispersed). Those in darkness shall shew themselves. They shall be lead and protected in all the climes they inhabit due to the dispersion.

14 But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
18 ¶ Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the Lord, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.

The long dispersed again began to inherit the lands of the original inheritance (Land of Israel). They are protected and gathered. Jerusalem/Israel (the Land) will be crowded again by the Israelites.

21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
22 Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
24 ¶ Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
25 But thus saith the Lord, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

The question is asked, "Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been? "

The answer is that "these children" were brought back home by the Gentiles (was it not Britain primarily that re-established the nation of Israel with the support of Europe and the Western world?). The gathering of Israel was/is being performed under the auspices of the Gentile world who was given the "light" and is now bringing it back. The Gentile Kings and Queens (and their people) are the friend and "servant".

And, there is the prophecy that those who fight the re-established Israel will fail miserably...

__________________________

Now, I am sure that some of you may view this passage from Isaiah with different ideas. I am no theologian and do not wish to debate it. I have simply answered Chumdawg's request. I intentionally left no explanation at first because it is not my purpose to start a "holy war" on this chatboard.

There is also the plausible interpretation that the references to "Israel" and the "servant Gentiles" are to be understood purely from a spiritual reference point having to do with Truth alone and having no relationship to nations and genetic peoples and actual lands.

Personally, I think both meanings are mixed into this on purpose and lessons and meanings from both perspectives are accuate.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

Now, I am sure that some of you may view this passage from Isaiah with different ideas. I am no theologian and do not wish to debate it. I have simply answered Chumdawg's request. I intentionally left no explanation at first because it is not my purpose to start a "holy war" on this chatboard.

Oh, hell, why not? We're talking about international policy, right, and is there any way to divorce one from the other?

Now, to me, that passage you quoted sounds like it was written by Israelites, for Israelites, and of Israelites. I don't think we have to look further than Verse Seven, where the Lord is defined as the Redeemer of Israel. Reasonable people can pretty much stop there, right? This pretty clearly delineates things, doesn't it?

I mean, the cat who wrote this was an Israelite, no? Hey, this piece reminds me in a way of my Dallas Cowboys gameday threads. Kill 'em all! Let the blood flow freely! Let the righteous prevail in the end!

I wish God would make it a hell of a lot easier on us and go ahead and publish a 21st-century version of his bible. Me, I'm not sure that all us people are smart enough to decipher the original work...or more to the point, dumb enough to still adhere blindly to it two thousand years after the fact.

It's been two thousand years since we saw a glimpse of this god-persona that was described to us--if indeed we believe the folklore--and the situation today doesn't remotely resemble the situation then, yet we keep on killing in the name of whoever he may be. We're either way right, and will spend our afterlife sleeping on pillows or somesuch, or we're way, way, way wrong.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Hey, this piece reminds me in a way of my Dallas Cowboys gameday threads. Kill 'em all! Let the blood flow freely! Let the righteous prevail in the end!

I wish God would make it a hell of a lot easier on us and go ahead and publish a 21st-century version of his bible.

I like these two ideas together (like chocolate & peanut butter) - someone needs to write a Cowboys-centric Bible to explain WHY the 'Boys are God's team... I'd love to see your gameday "river of blood" passages - stories of the prophet Jimmy Johnson, Emmit & Goliath, and the destructions of Pittsburgh & Buffalo!

[jefelump]

from chumdawg:
Now, to me, that passage you quoted sounds like it was written by Israelites, for Israelites, and of Israelites. I don't think we have to look further than Verse Seven, where the Lord is defined as the Redeemer of Israel. Reasonable people can pretty much stop there, right? This pretty clearly delineates things, doesn't it?

Are all Jews Israelites? Yes. Are all Israelites Jews? Think about that before you say "Yes"

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jefelump

Are all Jews Israelites? Yes. Are all Israelites Jews? Think about that before you say "Yes"

I'm pretty sure the answer to your question would be "no."

[jefelump]

That is right. Jacob, who's name was changed to Israel, had more than 1 son. They are known as "the twelve tribes of Israel". The Jews are descendents of Judah. However, there are 11 other tribes. So back to your "written by Israelites, for Israelites, and of Israelites" comment, how do you know whether or not you and I are Israelites? I'm not Jewish, but that does not mean I can't be an Israelite. Same goes for everyone else.

[chumdawg]

I like to think that we are all Israelites.

[AxdemxO]

Hmm interesting points of view on here. I think there one point that people get constantly confused on. Thats getting "hating Israel" confused with "hating Jews". I am against Israel because its illegal and shouldn't be there. Millions of people have been killed and removed from their land just so theres a "jewish homeland".When they decided to do this why didnt they just give the Jews half of Germany or something. Instead of going to the middle east and taking land from people that had nothing to do with what was going on. Now I can walk by a Jew and say Hi and he/she is just another person to me, but I can not stand Israel and will never be for it.

** as for the Carter thing. WHAT EXACTLY IS THE PROBLEM WITH WHAT HE SAID????? that he spoke the truth..

[jefelump]

from Axdemx0:
Hmm interesting points of view on here. I think there one point that people get constantly confused on. Thats getting "hating Israel" confused with "hating Jews". I am against Israel because its illegal and shouldn't be there. Millions of people have been killed and removed from their land just so theres a "jewish homeland".When they decided to do this why didnt they just give the Jews half of Germany or something. Instead of going to the middle east and taking land from people that had nothing to do with what was going on. Now I can walk by a Jew and say Hi and he/she is just another person to me, but I can not stand Israel and will never be for it.

So you're opposed to Israel solely on the grounds of geography? You say the state of Israel is illegal because it's in the middle east, including Jerusalem? On what grounds do you call it "illegal"? Who dictates international law, and who decides for the world what is legal and what is illegal?

[jefelump]

from chumdawg:
Now, to me, that passage you quoted sounds like it was written by Israelites, for Israelites, and of Israelites. I don't think we have to look further than Verse Seven, where the Lord is defined as the Redeemer of Israel. Reasonable people can pretty much stop there, right? This pretty clearly delineates things, doesn't it?

I mean, the cat who wrote this was an Israelite, no? Hey, this piece reminds me in a way of my Dallas Cowboys gameday threads. Kill 'em all! Let the blood flow freely! Let the righteous prevail in the end!

from chumdawg:
I like to think that we are all Israelites.

So if you believe we're all Israelites, then why do you stop at verse 7? If it was "written by Israelites, for Israelites, and of Israelites", then you agree it was written for us. I think wmbwinn's point (or at least one of them) was that the situation with Israel was prophesied, by a Jewish prophet.

And getting back to the Jimmy Carter thing....

from alexamenos:
ok, for the record, i'm not the jews run everything....

i'm just saying that the notion that Israel has a formidable nuclear arsenal isn't all that controversial and it's not at all obvious to me why "US officials" should be expected to toe-the-line on Israel's policy of deliberate ambiguity on the matter.

Let's look at this from the opposite spectrum. Given that Israel is a US ally, as is Great Brittain and other countries, I believe logic dictates there is a certain amount of intelligence sharing going on between allies, including military capabilities. How would we feel if a former Israeli Prime Minister or former Brittish Prime Minister started telling the world about our classified military secrets? We would be rightfully outraged. So yes, I do believe our former heads of state are expected to "toe-the-line", as we expect them to do the same for us.

[wmbwinn]

Amos 9:8-9

8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

There are many passages that prophecy and discuss the dispersion of "Israel" (all 12 tribes/houses) among the world into all families and nations.

It is a mistake to view the prophecies concerning Israel as only applying to the House of Judah (Jews).

But, it is also a mistake to not see the many, many different ways that the words Hebrew, Israel, and Gentile are used.

In the scriptures, a literal descendant of Abraham is often referred to by the word Hebrew, a word derived from the same root as Eber. (See Gen. 10:21.) The first time the word is used in the Bible (in Gen. 14:13) it refers to Abraham himself. In Genesis 39:14 [Gen. 39:14] it refers to Joseph, a great-grandson of Abraham. Rather consistently throughout the remainder of the scriptures, Hebrews is used to refer to those who are direct, literal descendants of Abraham.

The descendants of Abraham (Hebrews) include anyone whose lineage goes back to any of the sons born to Abraham and his three wives. These wives and their sons, listed in the order of the wives’ marriages to Abraham, are as follows: from Sarah—Isaac; from Hagar—Ishmael; from Keturah—Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.

Please note that the descendants of Abraham include many, many more peoples than those who are descended from Isaac, the son who is discussed most in the Bible. Entire nations are directly descended from Abraham, including citizens of the numerous Arab countries and those from multitudinous groups who have intermarried into other cultures and races.

Who Belongs to a “Tribe of Israel” or to the “House of Israel”?
Isaac, the son of Abraham and Sarah, had a son called Jacob, whose name was subsequently changed to Israel. Jacob had four wives, by whom he had twelve sons: from Leah—Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun; from Rachel—Joseph and Benjamin; from Bilhah—Dan and Naphtali; from Zilpah—Gad and Asher. The descendants of these twelve sons have been divided into separate family tribes, each carrying the name of the son of Israel through whom they were born: Reuben, Simeon, etc. Collectively, the descendants of the tribes of Israel are known as the house of Israel and are called Israelites. Obviously, all Israelites (descendants of Jacob) are Hebrews (descendants of Abraham), but not all Hebrews are Israelites.

Additional family names are used for some groups in the house of Israel. The descendants of Judah (the fourth-born son of Jacob), for example, are known as Jews, and the descendants of Ephraim (a son of Joseph) are called Ephraimites. (See Judg. 12:4–6.)

In summary, then, the literal descendants of Abraham (Hebrews) include the descendants of Jacob (Israelites), Judah (Jews), and Ephraim (Ephraimites), all of whom are mentioned extensively in the scriptures. However, the descendants of Abraham also include many additional peoples who would be included in the Lord’s promise to Abraham.

Who Is a “Gentile”?
The basic meaning of the word Gentile is “foreign,” “other,” or “non.” Thus, to a Hebrew, a Gentile is a non-Hebrew; to an Israelite, a Gentile is a non-Israelite; and to a Jew, a Gentile is a non-Jew.

The word Gentile might also be used in several different ways to refer to family, religious, political, or even geographical relationships. For example, a person might be considered an Israelite in a family or blood sense, but might be called a Gentile in a political or geographical sense because he lives in a land or nation that is primarily Gentile, or non-Israelitish.

This is a very long way of saying that the "Gentiles" prophecied by Isaiah to be the "nursing Kings and nursing Queens" and "servants" of Israel may actually be of the lineage of Israel (Jacob) or of the lineage of Abraham.

It is a mistake to assign all good blessings in the Old Testament to the people of Jewish descent.

And, Chumdog, it is definitely a mistake to read the 49th chapter of Isaiah and assume it has nothing to do with you and only fits the Jews...

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by wmbwinn

And, Chumdog, it is definitely a mistake to read the 49th chapter of Isaiah and assume it has nothing to do with you and only fits the Jews...

Thanks for the detailed explanation. You learn something every day, they say, and I certainly did today.

My first question, then, would be: How do know if I'm in good or not?