The dirksters pick and roll defense... - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dude1394 · 12-14-2010, 08:21 PM

My game buddy was harping on the dirkster pick and roll defense last night. It's sort of a pet peeve for him but we started chatting about it. His comment was that the point of "showing" was to show hard enough and long enough to make sure the picked off guy can get back over to his man. This makes sense.

His criticism of the dirkster was that he wasn't showing long enough to let his man get back and therefore was basically creating an additional pick for his teammate to fight through. I'm trying to figure out why how long dirk shows makes that much of a difference. I can see that if he shows longer then his man has longer to get back, but the longer he shows the more open his man is and possibly is rolling to the basket.

I'm trying to figure out if my bud is correct, I'll have to look at tape but thought I would throw it out there for comments. What about Dirk's pick and roll defense?? Is he not showing hard and long enough or does he know he's so slow that he'll never get back in time.

Does he actually make it worse by screening off his own guy?

dalmations202 · 12-14-2010, 10:09 PM

Basically your buddy is correct, but since how well the pick is set, and how quick Dirks guy is, and how well the ball handler is at passing all come into effect..........it isn't as easy as just hold longer.

Yes, longer works, IF Dirk has the quickness to get back, backside defense is way off, etc. Whom is doing the ball handling makes lots of difference as some Dirk can stand in front of, and they won't get the pass off anyway, but some just use their quickness to beat Dirk, and then have the open man as well.

So it kind of depends on many things.

tcat075 · 12-14-2010, 11:29 PM

He may be making it worse, but what really would make it worse is if he got burned every time by the rolling big because he doesn't get back in time. Chandler's pnr defense is so good because he's athletic and quick. Dirk's not at all like that, and so he has to give himself a handicap. I'm sure there are times where he could do a better job pushing the guard away from the basket before recovering and just trusting the other big to help adequately, but there are also times he can't.

dude1394 · 12-15-2010, 12:48 AM

The guy who's getting picked has got to not get trapped on the pick as well and hustle his butt under dirk to pick up the guy.. I'm not seeing that very well either. It's almost like dirk shows then tries to get back to his man, while the original defender gets picked again by dirk.

So it's really pretty tough it appears. The defender getting picked has to be really on top of things to get past dirk as he tries to get back to his man.

SeriousSummer · 12-15-2010, 02:24 AM

A lot of the time, the Mavs switch and the center picks up Dirk's man and Dirk has to switch to take the center's defensive assignment. Vice Versa when the center is defending the pick and roll.

LonghornDub · 12-15-2010, 02:34 AM

Great post, dude. I'm gonna look at this more carefully the next few games and get back to you.

DMOC · 12-15-2010, 08:13 AM

What if both center and PF are the scoring type?

dude1394 · 12-15-2010, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Great post, dude. I'm gonna look at this more carefully the next few games and get back to you.

thanks...me too.. I haven't been recording home games so I don't have any data to look at. I'll record a few...

Possibly some links on the "correct" PNR defense play might be informative...

http://www.ehow.com/how_2066771_defe...asketball.html (lots of text, no video, diagrams)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_and_roll (better, still no diagrams...but some other links).

http://phoenix.fanster.com/2009/02/0...pick-and-roll/ This one talks about it but mostly it looks like the nuggets switch or just leave the defender completely.

SMC0007 · 12-15-2010, 12:31 PM

Dirk has the right idea way more often than not about when to show but the wrong execution at times or he shows half way causing a cluster. Thats not just Dirk, it happens to every team and to almost every defender at times. I don't claim to know everything but I record every single Mav game and I rewind and watch in slow-motion to see what exactly is going on with a lot of plays etc. From what I see his defense overall has been better this year no doubt. The quicker the pick setter is, the worse his show seems to be and both players seem to be able to separate more. I thought Chandler and Dirk (especially) both had really bad defensive games vs the Bucks.

dude1394 · 12-15-2010, 12:48 PM

Thanks smc....I think that the "halfway" show is what my buddy is talking about. I think he feels that this is worse than not showing at all as he blocks off the guy trying to get back as well.

SMC0007 · 12-15-2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Thanks smc....I think that the "halfway" show is what my buddy is talking about. I think he feels that this is worse than not showing at all as he blocks off the guy trying to get back as well.

yeah for sure. One of the things that Bob-O was saying is how Jennings is shoot a 3 or drive to the bucket type right now at this point in his young career. If you can find footage, look back at late in the game Dirk blew a pnr or mismatch by not knowing that or forgetting it if he was aware because if I recall correctly he didn't force him to shoot the midrange shot, and I don't really recall him shooting mid range shots all game. But he got by for a layup which hurt us. These guys have to react in the moment and it's happening so fast it's hard to blame him for one possession but it's one that stood out.

grndmstr_c · 12-15-2010, 05:39 PM

I was watching this some the other night, and have on previous occasions as well. I've definitely seen Dirk half-show before, but I don't remember that being a significant shortcoming of his against the Bucks; at least not down the stretch. The problems that I saw most consistently seemed to stem either from the Dallas guard taking too long to get back on his man (so that the opposing big was a good distance away by the time Dirk started recovering to him), and/or from a failing of coordination between Dirk and said guard, and I wouldn't know how to read any blame into that without knowing more about the way they were trying to defend the play.

Jennings' speed and the unexpected long-range proficiency of the Bucks on that night tended to magnify the errors, too.