Dirk vs. Kobe... the playoffs - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Dark Cuban · 05-01-2011, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

Perennial troll.

Aww. C'mon now. That's just rude!

Is that anyway to treat guests? I made a good point, don't you think?

By the way, the fact that it was my first post leads me to question whether or not you know the meaning of the word, "perennial."

Budapest Maverick · 05-01-2011, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cuban

Let me get this straight.

Dirk says it's all about winning it all. That nothing else matters. Before it was about making it to the play-offs. Then it was about making it out of the first round. Now it's about winning it all.

Yet you guys say that it's all about the stats. It's not about the rings. Not the one ring, the two rings, or the five.

It's the stats.

Figures.

Perennial losers.

It's about winning it all, to him, that is all is missing from his legacy, but to compare players, you have to take a look at the advanced stats, and prime impact. Stats don't lie. Basketball is a team sport, and you need multiple all-stars to win in this league. No matter how you put it, Dirk never had that. Do you really think Dirk doesn't win playing besides Shaq? Do you really think he doesn't win with a Bynum, Gasol, Odom, Artest supporting cast? Or with a prime Parker, and Manu Ginobili, and with Bowen, one of the best perimeter defender of all-time?

Dirk never had a real low-post presence playing next to him (something a lot of people think you can't win without, Kobe couldn't to this day...), he never had a truly great coach. He never had an elite perimeter defender. He never even had a legit all-star in his prime, playing next to him. A guy who makes it every other year. Forget about superstars. Yet, every advanced stat screaming to you, that he's just as good as those high impact players in the last decade.

Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Garnett. His adjusted +- ratings, PER, Win shares, everything shows you he's up there with them (actually, Bryant is the odd man out, his prime impact is not near to those guys). So Dirk is up there, he just happens to not won a ring yet, because he simply never had the supporting cast those guys had. It's really that simple.

Dark Cuban · 05-01-2011, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

It's about winning it all, to him, that is all is missing from his legacy, but to compare players, you have to take a look at the advanced stats, and prime impact. Stats don't lie. Basketball is a team sport, and you need multiple all-stars to win in this league. No matter how you put it, Dirk never had that. Do you really think Dirk doesn't win playing besides Shaq? Do you really think he doesn't win with a Bynum, Gasol, Odom, Artest supporting cast? Or with a prime Parker, and Manu Ginobili, and with Bowen, one of the best perimeter defender of all-time?

Dirk never had a real low-post presence playing next to him (something a lot of people think you can't win without, Kobe couldn't to this day...), he never had a truly great coach. He never had an elite perimeter defender. He never even had a legit all-star in his prime, playing next to him. A guy who makes it every other year. Forget about superstars. Yet, every advanced stat screaming to you, that he's just as good as those high impact players in the last decade.

Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Garnett. His adjusted +- ratings, PER, Win shares, everything shows you he's up there with them (actually, Bryant is the odd man out, his prime impact is not near to those guys). So Dirk is up there, he just happens to not won a ring yet, because he simply never had the supporting cast those guys had. It's really that simple.

If what you say is true, then there's a good reason Dirk has "the stats." Because he plays with scrubs. I remember Kobe going on 40 pt. games several years ago. He even scored 81 once. Now that's a stat. You know why? Because he played with scrubs. Your GM and owner must suck for perennially surrounding a great player with scrubs.

There's that word again - perennial

chumdawg · 04-30-2011, 09:03 PM

That's a pretty amazing stat, Murph. Man, we are in the company of greatness right now...and some of us don't even know it!

Murphy3 · 05-03-2011, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

That's a pretty amazing stat, Murph. Man, we are in the company of greatness right now...and some of us don't even know it!

It's truly amazing... Can you imagine what we'll have when Dirk retires? We do not know how good we have it.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 09:56 PM

I can't argue that. Of course, we really don't know what Dirk would do with a great team. I think we've seen that Dirk can take whatever you give him and turn it into one of the best teams in the NBA. It's just a shame that he's never really had anyone the caliber of Shaq or Gasol to play beside him. Nash wasn't the same player that he has been the past few years. Josh Howard?.. He's barely in the NBA. Antoine Walker? Seriously? Tyson Chandler? Definitely a solid player and almost even a borderline all-star type player. But that's nothing to write home about when he's possibly your 2nd best player.

I'm not trying to drag Kobe down in this thread. I'm just trying to show how truly great Dirk has been in the playoffs when compared to a guy that's one of the greatest players in the history of the game. When I say that his playoff numbers are probably slightly better than Kobe's..well, his playoff numbers are better than just about everyone that's ever played the game. It's not a knock on Kobe. I'm simply using Kobe as the example because the Mavs are playing the Lakers. Kobe is held on a pedastal as far as his playing ability goes and rightfully so. However, Dirk's numbers say that he's done more than any sane person could expect him to do in the playoffs.. much more.

chumdawg · 04-30-2011, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I can't argue that. Of course, we really don't know what Dirk would do with a great team. I think we've seen that Dirk can take whatever you give him and turn it into one of the best teams in the NBA. It's just a shame that he's never really had anyone the caliber of Shaq or Gasol to play beside him. Nash wasn't the same player that he has been the past few years. Josh Howard?.. He's barely in the NBA. Antoine Walker? Seriously? Tyson Chandler? Definitely a solid player and almost even a borderline all-star type player. But that's nothing to write home about when he's possibly your 2nd best player.

Dirk has had more than decent collections of players around him, that's for sure, even if he hasn't had a Robin type. But it's frightening to imagine a decent supporting cast plus a guy like Vince Carter in his prime.

tjeg · 04-30-2011, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I can't argue that. Of course, we really don't know what Dirk would do with a great team. I think we've seen that Dirk can take whatever you give him and turn it into one of the best teams in the NBA. It's just a shame that he's never really had anyone the caliber of Shaq or Gasol to play beside him. Nash wasn't the same player that he has been the past few years. Josh Howard?.. He's barely in the NBA. Antoine Walker? Seriously? Tyson Chandler? Definitely a solid player and almost even a borderline all-star type player. But that's nothing to write home about when he's possibly your 2nd best player.

I'm not trying to drag Kobe down in this thread. I'm just trying to show how truly great Dirk has been in the playoffs when compared to a guy that's one of the greatest players in the history of the game. When I say that his playoff numbers are probably slightly better than Kobe's..well, his playoff numbers are better than just about everyone that's ever played the game. It's not a knock on Kobe. I'm simply using Kobe as the example because the Mavs are playing the Lakers. Kobe is held on a pedastal as far as his playing ability goes and rightfully so. However, Dirk's numbers say that he's done more than any sane person could expect him to do in the playoffs.. much more.

That's why I feel Dirk could have been greater especially with these stats you just showed but unfortunately if you take a look at other factors(2006 finals, 2007 first round) all these will always be used against him and nobody will pay attention to some of these stats and performances. He has to breakthrough and beating the defending champions is where it starts.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-01-2011, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I can't argue that. Of course, we really don't know what Dirk would do with a great team. I think we've seen that Dirk can take whatever you give him and turn it into one of the best teams in the NBA. It's just a shame that he's never really had anyone the caliber of Shaq or Gasol to play beside him. Nash wasn't the same player that he has been the past few years. Josh Howard?.. He's barely in the NBA. Antoine Walker? Seriously? Tyson Chandler? Definitely a solid player and almost even a borderline all-star type player. But that's nothing to write home about when he's possibly your 2nd best player.

I'm not trying to drag Kobe down in this thread. I'm just trying to show how truly great Dirk has been in the playoffs when compared to a guy that's one of the greatest players in the history of the game. When I say that his playoff numbers are probably slightly better than Kobe's..well, his playoff numbers are better than just about everyone that's ever played the game. It's not a knock on Kobe. I'm simply using Kobe as the example because the Mavs are playing the Lakers. Kobe is held on a pedastal as far as his playing ability goes and rightfully so. However, Dirk's numbers say that he's done more than any sane person could expect him to do in the playoffs.. much more.

I think this sums up how I feel about both players and therefore any "Kobe vs Dirk" debate.

I for one have never ever bought the notion that Kobe was in any way an overrated player. Nor have I ever bought the notion that he was in any way a selfish player who was holding his teammates back until Gasol arrived. He is without question the 2nd best player ever at his position, and for my money one of the top 10 greatest players ever at any position. I think he deserves every bit of the acclaim and praise that he gets.

That I think there is not that much of a gap between Kobe and Dirk has nothing to do with Kobe being overrated and everything to do with Dirk being one of the most monumentally underrated athletes in the history of professional sports. The fact that he's kept this team a perennial 50+ win team for the past decade despite being the only constant and not having anything close to another "star" playing next to him is an accomplishment that few others can claim. The dude is a guaranteed 50-wins. In the post-Jordan era, the only other players I would say that about are Duncan and Shaq. (One could also put Lebron in that category, but his sample size is a lot smaller, so it's a bit more difficult to tell.)

NBA_fan_LA · 05-02-2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I can't argue that. Of course, we really don't know what Dirk would do with a great team. I think we've seen that Dirk can take whatever you give him and turn it into one of the best teams in the NBA. It's just a shame that he's never really had anyone the caliber of Shaq or Gasol to play beside him. Nash wasn't the same player that he has been the past few years. Josh Howard?.. He's barely in the NBA. Antoine Walker? Seriously? Tyson Chandler? Definitely a solid player and almost even a borderline all-star type player. But that's nothing to write home about when he's possibly your 2nd best player.

I'm not trying to drag Kobe down in this thread. I'm just trying to show how truly great Dirk has been in the playoffs when compared to a guy that's one of the greatest players in the history of the game. When I say that his playoff numbers are probably slightly better than Kobe's..well, his playoff numbers are better than just about everyone that's ever played the game. It's not a knock on Kobe. I'm simply using Kobe as the example because the Mavs are playing the Lakers. Kobe is held on a pedastal as far as his playing ability goes and rightfully so. However, Dirk's numbers say that he's done more than any sane person could expect him to do in the playoffs.. much more.

The bottom line is we will never know the answer to this debate for sure. It's only guessing at best. If they could switch places, that might tell us something. (The new Kobe-less Lakers with Dirk would really be tall tho.)
Stats wont do it because Kobe has more supporting help who want touches too and that keeps his averages down.
Both players are great so I look forward to watching their excellence on the big stage tonight.

Murphy3 · 05-03-2011, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NBA_fan_LA

The bottom line is we will never know the answer to this debate for sure. It's only guessing at best. If they could switch places, that might tell us something. (The new Kobe-less Lakers with Dirk would really be tall tho.)
Stats wont do it because Kobe has more supporting help who want touches too and that keeps his averages down.
Both players are great so I look forward to watching their excellence on the big stage tonight.

Having a solid supporting cast shouldn't hurt Kobe's shooting efficiency. Having an inferior supporting cast shouldn't help Dirk's shooting efficiency. Yet, Dirk is a much more efficient scorer in the playoffs than Kobe.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 10:16 PM

Oh sure, he's not surrounded by 14 Wang Zhizhi's... but he's not surrounded by Pau Gasol or Shaquille O'Neal... Dirk plus a mediocre supporting cast gets you 50 wins. Dirk plus a pretty good to good supporting cast made it to the finals. Dirk plus Shaq in or near his prime plus a mediocre to decent cast gets you domination of the NBA.

dude1394 · 04-30-2011, 10:20 PM

The only all-star dirk has ever played with was nashie...for way,way too short of a time. Since then nothing really.

tjeg · 04-30-2011, 10:29 PM

I'm not sure if an elite center or an elite guard is what dirk needed, imagine kobe and dirk playing together it would be has effective has kobe and gasol, because dirk is very effective in the post and kobe will attract a lot of attention away from him.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjeg

I'm not sure if an elite center or an elite guard is what dirk needed, imagine kobe and dirk playing together it would be has effective has kobe and gasol, because dirk is very effective in the post and kobe will attract a lot of attention away from him.

In my opinion..either would have been tremendous. At this point in his career, I'd probably say an elite guard. Earlier in his career, I might have leaned towards and elite center.

Murphy3 · 04-30-2011, 10:31 PM

The problem is, Dirk could average 30 a game and be extremely efficient..be the best player on the court and the Mavs still have an uphill road. That's kinda the problem.

tjeg · 04-30-2011, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

The problem is, Dirk could average 30 a game and be extremely efficient..be the best player on the court and the Mavs still have an uphill road. That's kinda the problem.

i agree, like I said in the MacMahon thread the lakers have a higher margin for error which also gives kobe a higher margin for error. At the end of the day dirk's teamates have to come through for him , if not Dirk will take the blame irrespective of his performance.

nowhereman · 05-01-2011, 12:11 AM

Dirk is currently a better player and historically a better player. Not to say Kobe isn't pretty good tho. He's right up there with guys like Clyde Drexler and Dominique for one of the top 5 or so shooting guards of all time. Guy just got really lucky to get Phil, Shaq, and Pau. But we've all seen his true colors. The only list he tops is the historically overrated player list.

nowhereman · 05-01-2011, 12:12 AM

Remember when the Lakers offered the Mavs kobe for dirk after Kobe went into his diva mode, and the mavs refused?

To this day, that was the right decision.

LA24KB4L · 05-01-2011, 12:44 AM

Kobe > dirk all day.. mavs choke so much, i guess texas teams has a thing of #1 seed loosing to a #8 seed? lol.. but thats the past.. lets see how quiet this forum gets when the game will go 4-0, 4-1 Lal>dal. Pau will shut down dirk

chumdawg · 05-01-2011, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LA24KB4L

Kobe > dirk all day.. mavs choke so much, i guess texas teams has a thing of #1 seed loosing to a #8 seed? lol.. but thats the past.. lets see how quiet this forum gets when the game will go 4-0, 4-1 Lal>dal. Pau will shut down dirk

Well, you're certainly not going to last here if you can't communicate more intelligibly than that. But to speak to your argument...we'll see. And I doubt we'll see you here if it doesn't go your way.

Mavsfan4ever · 05-01-2011, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, you're certainly not going to last here if you can't communicate more intelligibly than that. But to speak to your argument...we'll see. And I doubt we'll see you here if it doesn't go your way.

The moment that clown compared Dirk to Hitler on the bias of Dirk be German I knew he lacked intelligence. That being said I'm a terrible X & O's guy, but even I can carry on a more intelligent basketball conversation then these trolls.

mac222b · 05-01-2011, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavsfan4ever

The moment that clown compared Dirk to Hitler on the bias of Dirk be German I knew he lacked intelligence. That being said I'm a terrible X & O's guy, but even I can carry on a more intelligent basketball conversation then these trolls.

And on a personal note, every time you post it makes me happy because i get to eyeball the Mavs girl in your sig. Win-win!

mavs777 · 05-01-2011, 12:56 AM

yikes laker trolls. ban em

Dark Cuban · 05-01-2011, 05:51 AM

I may have had a bit much to drink. But I can't help but laugh at the fact that I'm a "dark cuban."

LMAO.

I kill myself.

Hey! I'm doing as you suggest! I'm killing myself!!!

Dark Cuban · 05-01-2011, 05:56 AM

Who's talking trash?

I call this a constructive dialogue.

Lakers lose a game? Then I'm talking trash.

Murphy3 · 05-01-2011, 07:22 AM

Dark Cuban, actually, Dirk's efficiency stats should SUFFER becuase he plays with an inferior lineup to Kobe. But that's not the case. Dirk is actually a more efficient scorer from 2pt, 3pt, and FT% than Kobe despite lacking the same assistance that Kobe has in LA. That's where your theory has a huge hole in it.

JeffViggiano · 05-01-2011, 09:03 AM

dirk this year will prove he is the best player in this league.go dirk go mavs

xrobx · 05-01-2011, 10:50 AM

honestly kobe doesn't even worry me. it's bynum, gasol, odom, and the other role players that i'm worried about.

mpb319 · 05-01-2011, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xrobx

honestly kobe doesn't even worry me. it's bynum, gasol, odom, and the other role players that i'm worried about.

Absolutely correct!
I actually would even lower that to Bynum and Odom.
Odom actually does a very good job defensively against Dirk because of his size and speed and he is sometimes very dominant on offense for the same reasons.

The Mavs have not had a real answer for Bynum since he has emerged.
We only advance if we can control or at least neutralize their advantages in the paint.

nowhereman · 05-01-2011, 11:21 AM

Mavs got the best player in the series. Problem is that the Lakers have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players and the better coach. Our guys better step up.

snackdaddy · 05-01-2011, 12:55 PM

Its really not fair to compare the two. Totally different types of players on different types of teams. Dirk is a much better shooter, and a lot taller. Kobe has other intangibles. Part of is persona is his personality. His value is his leadership. The way he pushes and demands more from his team. Anyone really think they win the last two titles if he was just a passive player who went about his own business? Probably not. Dirk is not that type of person. If I were to sit down and have beers with one, it would be Dirk, not Kobe. I think I would enjoy his company more. Like someone said, he's a better peson. But if I want to win a championship, I would take Kobe and not have beers with him. Sorry Dirk fans, thats just the way it is.

Murphy3 · 05-01-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snackdaddy

Its really not fair to compare the two. Totally different types of players on different types of teams. Dirk is a much better shooter, and a lot taller. Kobe has other intangibles. Part of is persona is his personality. His value is his leadership. The way he pushes and demands more from his team. Anyone really think they win the last two titles if he was just a passive player who went about his own business? Probably not. Dirk is not that type of person. If I were to sit down and have beers with one, it would be Dirk, not Kobe. I think I would enjoy his company more. Like someone said, he's a better peson. But if I want to win a championship, I would take Kobe and not have beers with him. Sorry Dirk fans, thats just the way it is.

I think that if you asked the players in the Mavs clubhouse, you'd find that they consider Dirk a leader. I also think that if you asked Kobe's teammates throughout the years, you'd probably find that he's viewed as less of a leader as you're making him out to be. I'm not saying tha the's not a leader at all.. Just saying that I don't think the chasm between their leadership abilities is nearly as wide as you think.

mac222b · 05-01-2011, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I think that if you asked the players in the Mavs clubhouse, you'd find that they consider Dirk a leader. I also think that if you asked Kobe's teammates throughout the years, you'd probably find that he's viewed as less of a leader as you're making him out to be. I'm not saying tha the's not a leader at all.. Just saying that I don't think the chasm between their leadership abilities is nearly as wide as you think.

And also that Kobe is the kind of guy to make a big show about his "leadership", whereas Dirk is not. Kobe's the kind of guy to pat himself on the back and publicly "coach" his teammates(often leading to an uncomfortable "get me out of here" look on said teammates face as they try to walk by).

Was it after the Miami game earlier this season when he held his after game personal practice session? As i think Simmons pointed out he could've done it on the Staples practice court. But then of course some in the press dutifully reported it as "the passion of Kobe". He's a calculating child-star type twat who's every move is scripted(except for the faggot thing).

Dirk on the other hand is sincere and deferential. I suppose if Dirk had made a bigger show about destroying the Blazers after Chris Johnson's foul, whooping it up and taunting them, it may have made a Sportscenter highlight. Class and efficiency and quiet determination doesn't sell.

spreedom · 05-01-2011, 02:13 PM

I love Dirk, he's my favorite NBA player of all-time, and I think he should have won the MVP this year... but that said, he isn't as good as Kobe. No way.

LonghornDub · 05-01-2011, 04:32 PM

They're dropping like flies. Love it.

DaMuleRules · 05-01-2011, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

They're dropping like flies. Love it.

I like Caron. One of my favorite former Lakers of years past. He's a friend of Kobe, and like Kobe, I was really disappointed when the Lakers traded him.

But Caron knows what's up. He knows what Kobe and the Lakers are about. He's been a part of it and seen it first hand.

He knows he's just whistling through the graveyard when it comes to talking tough about facing the Lakers.

Dirkadirkastan · 05-01-2011, 08:30 PM

What a sickening display of every fallacy and misconception of both Bryant and Nowitzki that there ever was.

DaMuleRules · 05-01-2011, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

What a sickening display of every fallacy and misconception of both Bryant and Nowitzki that there ever was.

No misconceptions here. Just facts.

Kobe 62 - Dirk AND the Mavs 61.

Not a misocnception.

But if you have meaningful information to dispute the facts, by all means attempt to put me in my place. But breaking out ridiculous accusations of "misconceptions" in response to historically obvious observations doesn't even remotely come close to doing so. Which I am sure you realize, which explains why you didn't attempt to do otherwise.

Reading this thread it is extremely obvious that there are a lot of Mavs fans who only watch the Mavs and only the Mavs in the post season when the Mavs are in it and stop the second they are eliminated - as they routinely are.

chumdawg · 05-02-2011, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaMuleRules

No misconceptions here. Just facts.

Kobe 62 - Dirk AND the Mavs 61.

Not a misocnception.

But if you have meaningful information to dispute the facts, by all means attempt to put me in my place. But breaking out ridiculous accusations of "misconceptions" in response to historically obvious observations doesn't even remotely come close to doing so. Which I am sure you realize, which explains why you didn't attempt to do otherwise.

Reading this thread it is extremely obvious that there are a lot of Mavs fans who only watch the Mavs and only the Mavs in the post season when the Mavs are in it and stop the second they are eliminated - as they routinely are.

That was a hella nice game by Kobe, that one. But of course, we would be wise to look at more than just the one or two best games the player ever had.

What I would like to talk about is performance in closeout games--either way: win to advance or lose to go home. I believe that Dirk has a quite solid record in that regard. The one game that I will always remember of Kobe's--as long as we are picking just one game to talk about--would be the Game Seven against the Suns, when Kobe threw his teammates, his coaches, his fans, and the entire franchise under the bus when he refused to play.

That's an image of Kobe I'll never be able to forget. Jordan would never have done such a thing. Nor, of course, Dirk.

Kobe has done a lot of great things and deserves tremendous respect in most areas. But he's got a little too much "me" to him for my tastes.