Crap roster or crappy coaching - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

EricaLubarsky · 02-05-2016, 10:38 PM

Vote now

Bryan_Wilson · 02-05-2016, 10:53 PM

Pretty easily both for me. If we are going to be critical of players playing poorly then the coach also needs to take responsibility. Let's face it.. if RC was out like Kerr was and we had an interim coach and the team played as poorly with that coach as they are right now with RC the GDT's would be full of posts about "we need RC to be back" "shows how great RC is". We are not getting better as the season goes on we are getting worse. That is on the players and coaching staff.

EricaLubarsky · 02-05-2016, 10:56 PM

I'd say getting worse make it 100% Rick and 0% players. Regardless of where they start, if they get worse or even stay the same, it's ALL on Rick

10AMGareDuNord · 02-06-2016, 12:36 AM

http://s1003.photobucket.com/user/Do...mnA-B.gif.html

Thebo · 02-06-2016, 08:31 AM

Do I still have to remind you that most of people here didn't even expect Mavs to make it to the playoffs? Erica had best possible prediction as 7-8th seed. Mavs currently lie 6th. Yet there are complaints as if Mavs were contenders before the start of the season.

That being said, Mavs have fallen off quite a bit behind Memphis. My prediction is not as much as where Mavs end up at but that the Mavs will meet LAC in the first round. Stern will come out of retirement to make it happen - no doubt. MEM will play either SAS or OKC - both teams match their rivalry status.

Again, with that being said, I would blame the system. I'm not a big fan of RC or his system but most problems I have is with his rotations. I do count him as one of the best in the league but I don't see him as being capable to adjust to the tools he has. He kind of adjusted to it when Monta was playing in Dallas - but this was pretty much giving Monta the ball and watch him do his sometimes-really-awful thing. With RC you just get the feeling that every young player ever to join Mavs will end up in the doghouse. He has serious problems trying to develop youngsters and definitely is the man to work with vets. One can only wonder what other candidates like Tom Thibedau could do with this personnel? Would it make Mavs better at defense? Really would like to see him as an assistant though.

But of course I'm not calling RC out as to be replaced. Just, there are a number of things that make you question him. I don't think that roster is poorly built. I mean, how much better roster could've you had after losing DeAndra to the Clippers? Name a move or moves that were made past summer which deserve the blame. And no, letting Tyson Chandler walk with that ridiculous contract was not a bad move. I can blame some aspects that players have but I honestly can't blame how this roster is built.

Jack.Kerr · 02-06-2016, 08:41 AM

Sow's ear ---> Silk purse?

If the choice is between Carlisle and Little Whistle, I'd say the responsibility falls with Whistle (and Cuban). Nelson has been in Dallas too long, and has gotten too comfortable making mistakes. Apathy leads to atrophy, not A Trophy.

Melonhead · 02-06-2016, 10:14 AM

I think the last 4 years are starting to wear on Carlisle. The turnover can only last for so long before you get diminished returns.

jleefilled · 02-06-2016, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

I think the last 4 years are starting to wear on Carlisle. The turnover can only last for so long before you get diminished returns.

This.

Overall, I think Carlisle is a great coach. I think we should keep in mind that there is the opponents-figuring-your-team-out component to all of this. So, I don't necessarily buy the team has to be improving or Carlisle doesn't know how to coach offense. Earlier in the season, I think teams didn't even know what to expect from the Mavs, and I feel like that was obviously an advantage from a coaching perspective.

If I were to gripe about Carlisle, I think I would point to his lack of development of younger, inexperienced players. He works well with veterans for sure, but I'd like to see Anderson and Powell reach their potential with the Mavs. I just feel like a younger player developing is such a win for the organization's future that it is essential.

LonghornDub · 02-06-2016, 10:59 AM

Other teams have coaches, too. The Spurs coach is ok, I hear. Maybe they're taking advantage of the Mavs' personnel weaknesses.

EricaLubarsky · 02-06-2016, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Other teams have coaches, too. The Spurs coach is ok, I hear. Maybe they're taking advantage of the Mavs' personnel weaknesses.

Question: 53 games into the season do you think we are better or worse than we were when the season started. If we aren't better now, then it's the coach. I'm not talking just the Spurs game. I'm taking the team in general.

rimrocker · 02-06-2016, 11:36 AM

I voted coach, not because Rick is a horrible coach but I just don't like his system.
Watching the Spurs play defense and having more than one player attacking the boards is something special to watch. I get frustrated watching a shot go up and seeing only one of our players within 12 ft of the basket.
We looked bad last night but I think the Spurs defense had a lot more to do with that than our players simply missing shots.

A finesse team and style of play is tough to watch at times.

Underdog · 02-06-2016, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

Sow's ear ---> Silk purse?

If the choice is between Carlisle and Little Whistle, I'd say the responsibility falls with Whistle (and Cuban). Nelson has been in Dallas too long, and has gotten too comfortable making mistakes. Apathy leads to atrophy, not A Trophy.

Yeah, I don't know how anyone can blame the coach when there's been zero consistency in our roster from season to season... Donnie/Cuban are far more responsible for our problems than Carlisle. Hell, it's a minor miracle that we're even a playoff team right now.

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-06-2016, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

I think the last 4 years are starting to wear on Carlisle. The turnover can only last for so long before you get diminished returns.

Problem is that the team is progressively playing worse. And not to sound biased, but they also miss Harris's defense. Felton and Barea can't defend to save their lives.

I just don't think the roster turnover argument makes sense if you're playing well to start the season and then start playing worse as February comes around. Makes no sense. If anything, teams should start to gel by now. Unfortunately, I don't think Rick's coaching blends with player momentum. He likes to mix and match given the situation and will purposely test a player to see how they respond. That and the fact that the team just isn't very good starter or bench-wise is a both vote for me.

LonghornDub · 02-06-2016, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Question: 53 games into the season do you think we are better or worse than we were when the season started. If we aren't better now, then it's the coach. I'm not talking just the Spurs game. I'm taking the team in general.

Disagree with your premise.

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-06-2016, 02:10 PM

The offense should be far better than it is. A lot of that has to be on the coach. There should be no reason why Williams/Wes/Parsons/Dirk can't score with the best of them.

However, I don't believe Williams and Wes are holding themselves accountable for poor play. Parsons works his ass off on his shot whereas Wes doesn't think there is anything wrong with his. That puzzles me. Wes has been the worst offensive player on the team recently next to CV. If he doesn't do something about it, then this team has big problems. You just can't have Wes and Deron taking nights off...not when the bench is terrible.

Jack.Kerr · 02-06-2016, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Question: 53 games into the season do you think we are better or worse than we were when the season started. If we aren't better now, then it's the coach. I'm not talking just the Spurs game. I'm taking the team in general.

You pose the question as if it's an axiom, but it's not. How is Carlisle supposed to improve a flawed roster with limited talent, a 37-year-old carrying the burden, two (grossly overpaid FA) starters coming off major surgery, and a third fragile paste-on point guard playing the 2? Carlisle is supposed to be both a faith healer AND a miracle worker?

I'm not even a huge Carlisle fan, not nearly to the extent of other people on the board, but as a general principle MTI-->MRO: Mediocre Talent Input-->Mediocre Results Output. They're actually a little bit ahead of where I would have projected them given the roster, but I sense they're trending downward, and will likely fade as the season progresses. I just can't hold Carlisle responsible for not forcing this group to over-overachieve.

dirt_dobber · 02-06-2016, 05:30 PM

nice thread.
I love RC but his rotations have always puzzeld me even when he coached Pacers and Pistons. But he is still highly a regarded coach troughout the league.

rimrocker · 02-06-2016, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirt_dobber

nice thread.
I love RC but his rotations have always puzzeld me even when he coached Pacers and Pistons. But he is still highly a regarded coach troughout the league.

I often get frustrated at Rick for frequently changing lineups and benching guys for no apparent reason....especially young guys. He always says his guys need to be ready at any time and usually praises them for having the right attitude but it is difficult for anyone to get into a flow when they are part of the rotation one week and virtually in his doghouse the next.

I don't necessarily blame Rick because he always seems to be looking for chemistry and the roster changes every year but it is becoming a trend and it would be nice to narrow the rotation down to 9 guys with a nice blend of youth and veterans as well as skill sets. This team has been looking for some type of identity since 2011 but has never really found one.

I know injury, age and schedule plays a role but I'd love to see this team develop a rotation and identity and just go with it. All 15 players have gotten into some type of groove and contributed (maybe with the exception of Jenkins) and that is good but also indicates this team has some quality issues in key areas.

Melonhead · 02-06-2016, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Problem is that the team is progressively playing worse. And not to sound biased, but they also miss Harris's defense. Felton and Barea can't defend to save their lives.

I just don't think the roster turnover argument makes sense if you're playing well to start the season and then start playing worse as February comes around. Makes no sense. If anything, teams should start to gel by now. Unfortunately, I don't think Rick's coaching blends with player momentum. He likes to mix and match given the situation and will purposely test a player to see how they respond. That and the fact that the team just isn't very good starter or bench-wise is a both vote for me.

Extremely favorable schedule to start the season which made them look better than they really were. At no point did I think they were better than a 7 seed and only because the WC is weak this season. Its not like they were beating really good teams in the beginning. They got LAC, but that was an emotion win for everyone. The mavs are like 7-19 v above .500 teams. That didnt just start happening.

Turnover makes sense because its a constant churn and it wears on a coach. At some point you cant keep giving Carlisle trash and expect treasure. He shoulders some of the blame for his stubbornness.

spreedom · 02-07-2016, 02:27 AM

I say about 85% roster makeup, 15% Rick. Let's be real, the only better active coach in basketball right now is Popovich, and even he would struggle to beat the best of the best with this roster. The way I see it, we are mostly beating the teams we're better than and are mostly losing to the teams we're worse than. Ideally a great coach would get you over the hump if you were in the same league as those better teams, but in this case the roster clearly has gaping holes:
1. Backup power forward. Powell might be that guy someday, but right now he isn't, and Charlie V has fallen off a cliff compared to his play last year, which was best described as adequate
2. Rim protector at center. Zaza is obviously a lot better defensively than the basketball world at large gives him credit for, but when D-Will/Wes/Parsons get blown by, he usually isn't able to cover their mistakes -- not his fault, but a realistic analysis of one of his deficiencies... and as athletic as Javale is, he isn't good enough all around to be a 25MPG center on a contender
3. Dependable second-unit defender. When healthy, Wes is an All-Defense quality player, but he isn't moving well laterally and won't approach what he was until next season, if he fully recovers at all; Parsons is capable of being an above-average wing defender himself but to this point of his career, hasn't put it together consistently enough
4. Dependable second-unit shooter. By my math, we're 21st in the league in 3pt%... Dirk, Wes and Parsons should all be guys shooting above league average on a high volume of threes. Currently, Wes is shooting under 35%... even if all three of those guys are at 39-40%, we're probably still a middle-of-the-pack team from outside. We need a guy we can bring in off the bench and rely on to hit a couple of threes per game without totally wrecking the team in all other areas. I thought Jenkins was going to be that guy, but I don't know if we even pick up his option at this rate... he's been awful in every way so far.

In a perfect world, we fill needs 3 and 4 with Anderson, but he has looked pretty lousy on both accounts until the past week or so. If he can keep it up, he might solve both of those problems before the end of the year and find more minutes next year. 1 and 2, however, probably require roster moves, and I'm not really expecting those to happen this season.

So let's get Al Horford this summer, eh?

Kante · 02-07-2016, 05:09 AM

Not RC's fault...

Bryan_Wilson · 02-07-2016, 11:53 PM

As I've said in other threads RC's lineups are what drive me craziest. It can be debated that he plays the best players but I just don't see any way to defend the fact that routinely we see strange lineups like Dirk at the 5 with CV3 at the 4 with LMA on the floor against them. Then at the same time have JJ and Felton on the floor. That's an awful lot of no defense for one lineup. Then he plays Wes for 12 minutes straight with no breaks. He may be young enough but does he remotely look "right" enough to do that? Especially if we do actually have a guy who could be giving him 2minutes of rest(Simba) at the end of quarters? Which would really be much more in terms of rest with breaks. I'd also like to even see what wes and JA on the floor together is like. Idk why we need 3 ball handlers in the game so much.

I do have an issue with the offense though, some is still lineups but it's the scheme itself rly. Just like last season when everyone here could see that Monta was playing hurt or whatever... he dropped off considerably in terms of efficiency. And with he and Rondo combined Parsons(and Crowder early on) sat in a corner all game to space the floor. Then this season we will have lineups with JJ+Dwill/Felton/Harris(sometimes even 3 of them) and Parsons on the floor together... again having him just standing in a corner. Even if he is 8-12 or something from the field, he is still just standing in a corner to space things for a multi-pg lineup. Ppl always bring up Crowder and how much better he is in Boston, well he stated almost immediately how happy he was to not just stand in the corner and shoot 3's. I like RC, I don't want him going anywhere but IDK y he escapes some criticism just because we may not have as much talent as we'd like. Just like RC said he pushes Parsons and critiques him to make him better and he expects more. Why as fans can we not criticize RC and expect more because we know he is capable of it?

DGM · 02-08-2016, 07:53 AM

Don't expect to see big name free agents come to Dallas as long as RC is here. Millionaires won't put up with his head games. Parsons is probably a goner. Jordan made the right decision. RC would have benched him for free throw shooting. He is a good tactician but today's athletes won't put up with the head crap. I am a fan of the Mavs but they won't win anymore with RC. The only guys that he values are guys like Zaza ad JJ. You can't win with Zaza and JJ.

Murphy3 · 02-08-2016, 09:07 AM

Offensively inconsistent... Dirk's not as consistent as he once was.. Williams obviously isn't.. Matthews definitely isn't.. Parsons is looking better but hasn't been consistent..

I think the Mavs biggest issue is bad polls started at dallas-mavs.com

rimrocker · 02-08-2016, 11:15 AM

A good argument could be made for both. This team is in serious need of developing some youth but Rick is more suited to coach contenders. Rick is competitive and takes a tactical approach to winning which is a good thing.

Donnie and Mark could help the situation by taking a strategic approach of creating a predominately youthful roster (guys 27 and under) which would essentially force Rick to develop youth. This strategy of trading for guys with baggage, vastly overpaying average FAs, signing former all-stars who are in their mid 30s, and trying to ride an aging Dirk is not going to work and is slowly eroding the quality of this team doing both short and long term damage.

I'm afraid Rick and the Mavs is slowly becoming a bad marriage as Dirk ages.

Underdog · 02-08-2016, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I think the Mavs biggest issue is bad polls started at dallas-mavs.com

You've bitched on & on for years about people not being "allowed" to post new threads, yet here you are telling someone they shouldn't start a new thread just because you don't like it... Hypocrite.

Seriously, you're so full of sh!t about everything.

Underdog · 02-08-2016, 12:10 PM

Is it that Rick sucks at developing young talent, or is it that the front office sucks at drafting/keeping young talent?

I mean, guys like Roddy, DoJo, Sarge and Ledo aren't even in the league anymore, so it's not like "more playtime" was going to fix what's wrong with them... And when Rick does get a promising rookie like Crowder, the FO ships him for Rajon "train wreck" Rondo... And of course Carlisle doesn't get any credit for coaching-up young castoffs like Aminu, Wright, Brewer and Mahinmi (all guys the FO dumped) -- instead he catches flak for not being able to develop marginal talent like Jared Cunningham or Shane Larkin.

bunkmoreland · 02-08-2016, 01:51 PM

I think there may be some kind of disconnect between Rick, Donnie, Cuban that is holding the organization back a bit.
Poppavich gets to construct his team to fit his system. There is something to be said for that.

Murphy3 · 02-08-2016, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

You've bitched on & on for years about people not being "allowed" to post new threads, yet here you are telling someone they shouldn't start a new thread just because you don't like it... Hypocrite.

Seriously, you're so full of sh!t about everything.

I learned it from you Underdog..

Underdog · 02-08-2016, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I learned it from you Underdog..

Typical weak-dick response -- your brand of trolling is lazy as fvck.

Underdog · 02-08-2016, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunkmoreland

I think there may be some kind of disconnect between Rick, Donnie, Cuban that is holding the organization back a bit.

It definitely does seem like it... Not really sure what's going on there.

rimrocker · 02-08-2016, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Is it that Rick sucks at developing young talent, or is it that the front office sucks at drafting/keeping young talent?

It's a little of both...but I'd say it's the overall culture of the team since Mark took over. Rick came in at the perfect time when Dirk was in his prime and had a great supporting cast. That was a good marriage. As Dirk has been aging the culture hasn't changed and it is still a "win with Dirk" attitude. I don't blame Rick because most of the talent level we've had in our youth have a role player ceiling at best so it is difficult not to play vets with the same talent level with experience over those players.

However, I do think RC's leash is too short at times and doesn't let young players play through their mistakes.

Underdog · 02-08-2016, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimrocker

However, I do think RC's leash is too short at times and doesn't let young players play through their mistakes.

Yeah, but the guys who make their way out of the doghouse tend to be better players from that point on -- at least that's how it worked with Barea, Wright and Crowder... Each of them had a long DNP streak right before they turned the corner.

It's almost as if good players react well to his coaching style, whereas bad players don't.

EricaLubarsky · 02-08-2016, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunkmoreland

I think there may be some kind of disconnect between Rick, Donnie, Cuban that is holding the organization back a bit.
Poppavich gets to construct his team to fit his system. There is something to be said for that.

I have to admit that I really know very little about the FO, but it seems like:

1) Cuban interferes and does some of the work of the GM, which makes things difficult
2) Donnie is doing the job of three or four people (particularly with the need for good tape/stats analysis people)
3) Rick isn't always in the huddle for the trades/signings.
4) Donnie Nelson has been our GM for 14 years and basketball has changed a lot from the Laker dynasty to the Wade/LeBron years to the potential Warrior dynasty.

Those things make me worried about the overall future of the franchise. We need some fresh ideas, but our FO is tightly knit and almost incestuous. It's really hard to bring in some new minds with our current situation as we saw with Rosas.

Underdog · 02-08-2016, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I have to admit that I really know very little about the FO, but it seems like (with source for belief in parentheses)

1) Cuban interferes and does some of the work of the GM, which makes things difficult (Rosas fiasco)
2) Donnie is doing the job of three or four people (particularly with the need for good tape/stats analysis people (articles about Rosas, common sense)
3) Rick isn't always in the huddle for the trades/signings. (some of the quotes after the Rondo trade and after some of the signings over the years)
4) Donnie Nelson has been our GM for 14 years and basketball has changed a lot from the Laker dynasty to the Wade/LeBron years to the potential Warrior dynasty.

Those things make me worried about the overall future of the franchise. We need some fresh ideas, but our FO is tightly knit and almost incestuous. It's really hard to bring in some new minds with our current situation as we saw with Rosas.

Yeah, even if you think Donnie is/was a genius GM, things change... It's probably time for some new blood, as this franchise has grown stale.

rimrocker · 02-08-2016, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, but the guys who make their way out of the doghouse tend to be better players from that point on -- at least that's how it worked with Barea, Wright and Crowder... Each of them had a long DNP streak right before they turned the corner.

It's almost as if good players react well to his coaching style, whereas bad players don't.

I think some of that is necessity. Chandler and Dalembert had virtually no backups the last 2 seasons so Wright got an opportunity out of a dire need.
I think the same was true for Powell early this season until McGee came back and Mejri showed some potential. Powell has been lost ever since.

We simply have to get younger for 2 reasons:
1. We could easily have 7 of our top 9 guys age 30 and over next season (most of them 32 and over). Not a good situation for 45-48 win 6-8 seed.
2. Rick would be forced to try to win with young guys.

I love Zaza and DWill and would love to resign both of them but it is imperative to sign a starter quality player under 30 (hopefully in addition) for us to have any chance next season.

EricaLubarsky · 02-08-2016, 05:20 PM

I kinda figure that we're on a 2-year rebuild, for when Dirk retires. I'd keep Parsons, Williams, and Matthews. We have some good pieces, but good pieces don't anchor a great team.

Upper 30s
Dirk - 37

Early 30s
Harris - 32
Pachulia - 31
Williams - 31
Barea - 31
Felton - 31
Villanueva - 31

20s
Matthews - 29
Mejri - 29
McGee - 28
Evans - 28
Parsons - 27
Powell - 24
Jenkins - 24
Anderson - 22

rimrocker · 02-08-2016, 05:45 PM

Yeah I think there will be some tough decisions this off season. Zaza is great and I'd love to have him back but only at the right price. He just turned 32 and could be out if the price is too high. Felton is another who could likely go. Agree DWill will most likely return.

But even if we bring everyone back at bargain prices we need to have enough to sign a young FA or pickup someone via a trade who is young.
Bringing everyone back will still make us an old team because Rick will most likely play vets. I'd rather compromise some of those decent vets for some players with some upside.

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-08-2016, 06:14 PM

Parsons is the best thing going for the Mavs right now. He looks like a guy who might actually be better than Dirk sooner rather than later. Otherwise, meh. Bench sucks, starters mostly inconsistent, offense is putrid, and defense comes and goes.

I also would like to see a new GM brought in. Too bad Gerson Rosas didn't work out.

rimrocker · 02-08-2016, 07:00 PM

Bottom line we are simply a victim of our own success.
When was the last year that we really sucked?
You almost have to go back to the 90s.
Almost every team with the exception of the Spurs had a horrible season now and then over the past 18 or so years but we really haven't had one. And we haven't exactly been filling up the all-star rosters over that period as well so kudos to Donnie, Mark, Dirk and company for doing so well with so little but we will be in need of an overhaul soon. And if Donnie and Rick can't convince Mark of that it will be a difficult and frustrating next several years for Mavs fans.