NVE must be traded - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 06:46 PM

I just thought I'd start a thread so everyone can go ahead and get their negative feelings about NVE out. I believe that I was probably single handedly responsible for Juwan Howard being traded last year. I'm going to go ahead and start a similar campaign to get rid of NVE via trade.

Fidel · 06-17-2002, 07:50 PM

<< NVE must be traded >>

I agree.

Rhylan · 06-17-2002, 08:24 PM

As long as Nellie is the coach, whatever we get for NVE won't help us as much as NVE does. Because Nellie won't play just any big man, and Nellie won't lower Nash's minutes in lieu of just any backup PG. I think that Nash's wear and tear issue is actually BIGGER than the "we have to have a big man" issue.

The only exception to this that I see is if Big Nellie covets a big man in the draft that can somehow be obtained by trading Nick.

And if you trade Nick, you GOTTA get a good backup in for Nash, which is not easy. Not AJ. I know he "luuuvs the gayme of bayuskitbawul," and he's as smart as anyone in the L, but he can't run the Mavs' offense for enough minutes a game to spell Nash adequately. And you think NVE is a defensive liability? AJ makes NVE look like The Glove.

NVE has, in my opinion, top-20-caliber offensive skills in the NBA. He would be a starter anywhere else in the league. With as much small ball as Nellie INEVITABLY will play, whether we like it or not, and with as much fatigue issues as Nash has, there are only a few guys that I'd rather have besides NVE backing up Nash in the "backup PG/sometimes 2-guard" role. And they are, in no particular order:

Gary Payton
Jason Kidd
Stephon Marbury
Allen Iverson
Mike Bibby
Steve Francis

And guess what, we ain't gettin' a one of 'em, no matter how hard we try, unless they just decide that they want to play in Dallas no-matter-what.

So, until you can show me that trading NVE will net us and/or enable us to obtain 1) a big man that will solve the unsolvable problem, and 2) a backup point guard that is good enough to play 25 minutes a night, then I say don't trade NVE.

But I am not dead set against trading him. I just think that there's no reason to opine for his dismissal like there was with Juwan. I also think that the scenarios for trading NVE that WOULD help us more in the long run are just not likely to happen.

For example, if we could pull off an NVE trade with the Clips that would somehow get us Jeff McInnis and the #8 pick, which we would use to pick Nene Hilario, I'd be pretty pleased. The trade is lopsided for Dallas, but stay with me anyway. This is contingent, of course, upon three things. 1) Sterling is willing to take NVE's salary for 2 more years. 2) McInnis is willing to come to Dallas to play as a 20-30 minute a night backup and is signed to a moderately long deal. 3) Nene Hilario will actually help us, and Nellie will actually PLAY HIM.

Or Chris Wilcox. Or Drew Gooden. Or Curtis Borchardt. Or Marcus Camby. Or Kandi. Or, or, or. Travis Best. Chauncey Billups. Whoever.

You gotta find a stupid GM. You gotta get a draft pick (PG or big man) that will actually be able to help, and whom Nellie will actually allow to help. You gotta get another player, via the trade or by some other deal made possible (and absolutely vital) by the trade, (PG or big man) who is the kind of big man Nellie will play, or if he's a PG, both good enough and humble enough to do what is needed here.

It just ain't likely.

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 09:07 PM

getting nothing for nve makes this team better than having him on the team.

Rhylan · 06-17-2002, 09:17 PM

Oh lord. Here we go.

You have got to be kidding me, dude. How can you possibly say that? I don't get to jump on your case as much as everybody else because I usually agree. But damn, here's my chance. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard on this board.

Our brittle point guard would be backed up by a 5'8" 36 year old who doesn't have a lot of shooting range.

Our bench would have zero offense. Maybe you can count Griff. If Mr. Miyagi comes and does that magic thing where he rubs his hands together, and fixes Griff's back, then MAYBE you get away with it, and some Point-Griff to back Nash up.

And that would be it. To get nothing back for NVE would be stupid and it wouldn't happen because Cuban knows it's stupid.

I thought you had a degree in Accounting, Murph. Do the math.

Drbio · 06-17-2002, 09:23 PM

AJ makes NVE look like The Glove.

Ouch.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-17-2002, 09:27 PM

A yo Rylan dont worry I agree with u here. I think its just stupid to say we would be better without NVE. Murphy, u are just going by waht u saw NVE do as a Mav. Nve has more talent than Nash tho he isnt a better ball player than Nash. What makes us effective is having 2 great pgs on our roster and when or if we do trade NVE we wont get equal value back. But u just hate NVE so im sure u could give a damn right? Im with keeping NVE here tho I think it is a lil low to make a thread on how much negativity u have towards NVE. Nve has only played 40 games with us 40 games doesent show anything most Mavs fans knew that when we traded for NVE and Lafrentz team chemistry would be ruined and it takes more than 40 games to get that chemistry back trust me. Like ive said before if there is a deal out there were we get equal talent back then lets trade him but if we are going to get a mediocre player which we more than likely will for NVE we will do better off anyway being that Nellie is playing the run and gun style what use does that do in trading NVe to go slower?

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 09:30 PM

You can't honestly say that you cannot see just a bit of me intentionally going over the top for affect

As i've said hundreds of times, don't trade NVE for nothing..make sure you get something that will help the team. However, I would make sure that you did move NVE if at all possible.

You don't give up a commodity for nothing. However, NVE is an ill-fitting part on this team.... very ill-fitting

Rhylan · 06-17-2002, 09:30 PM

Even based only on what Nick did with the Mavs this year, including his disappearing act in the playoffs, he's still the best backup PG in basketball. Despite Bobby Jackson's playoff performance. Nick's been doing that for 9 years. Jackson's cool and all, but he did it for a series and a half, against Dallas and LA.

Drbio · 06-17-2002, 09:30 PM

FFM- where you been dude? I think that NVE brings a lot to the team, but when he plays WITH Nash, the team suffers. If Nellie would use him to spell Nash it would be better IMO. I think NVE has max trade value for the Mavs right now which is why I want to ship him out.

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 09:31 PM

another thing that makes this difficult is that Nellie had originally said that he wanted to coach through this year.. But, are we to the point that we're assuming that nellie will be around a few more years after this?

Drbio · 06-17-2002, 09:32 PM

I think so...I just don't see Nellie leaving with a team that is this close to winning a championship.

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 09:32 PM

IF NVE can actually play the PG position instead of coming in and looking for his own shot first, then yes, I don't have a problem with him being here.
However, as long as he's looking to be a shoot first type guy, the team will suffer

Drbio · 06-17-2002, 09:33 PM

If Nellie is indeed going to stay, it wouldn't shock me one bit to see NVE in a Mavs uni for a couple years.

Drbio · 06-17-2002, 09:33 PM

Nellie TELLS NVE to shoot...that's where it all started. In NVE's first few games he played a decent PG.

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 09:34 PM

NVE is poor enough of a shooter that it simply doesn't make sense at all for him to be a guy that looks for his shot first..especially on a team that is as talented offensively as the mavs. as long as he does this, he will (overall) hurt this mavs team

Rhylan · 06-17-2002, 09:34 PM

<< You can't honestly say that you cannot see just a bit of me intentionally going over the top for affect >>

Oh, of course, but like I said earlier, there are only so many deals out there that could mean both moving NVE and making the Mavs better. And they're not likely to happen.

The fact of the matter is that NVE brings enough to the table for the Mavs that moving him is going to be hard to do.

Drbio · 06-17-2002, 09:35 PM

Nellie will keep NVE unless he is blown away by an offer.

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 09:36 PM

Doc, I'm also judging this based upon NVE's career..not just while he was here with the mavs.

However, I also believe that nellie deserves alot of the blame for wanting NVE to look to shoot first. Your can't get your 4th option confused with your first. there has to be some pecking order. Now, the difference between shot distribution from your #1 guy to the #2 guy doesn't have to be great..however, once you get as far down the line as the 4th guy, he must know his place. Nellie must realize that NVE is a 40% shooter for a reason.

Drbio · 06-17-2002, 09:37 PM

Your can't get your 4th option confused with your first. there has to be some pecking order.

No argument at all here....

Nellie needs to quit playing NVE and Nash at the same time IMO. It would make the team better.

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 09:38 PM

You can actually make the Mavs better without getting full value for NVE. However, with salary cap restrictions, this might not be as possible as otherwise. but, I wouldn't leave any stone unturned.

Drbio · 06-17-2002, 09:40 PM

I listen to all offers, but I don't trade him just to do it.

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 09:40 PM

Look, i realize that we're probably going to be stuck with NVE on this team. this is what scares me. I don't believe that having him on the team will be good for the mavs because of the style of play that Nellie likes. Nellie would rather go small and sacrifice defense. Nellie also has a problem with trying to create mismatches instead of using the inherent mismatches that are already available.

NVE + Nellie ='s heartburn for mavs fans

FilthyFinMavs · 06-17-2002, 09:46 PM

<< FFM- where you been dude? I think that NVE brings a lot to the team, but when he plays WITH Nash, the team suffers. If Nellie would use him to spell Nash it would be better IMO. I think NVE has max trade value for the Mavs right now which is why I want to ship him out. >>

I understand this but I mean come on NVE isnt a scrub backup pg he is gonna get about 25-30 minutes a game. Being that Nash is going to get aroudn 35-40 which I feel shoudl be reduced but Im assuming here lol there are gonan be times were they play at the same time which shoudl eb aroudn in the 4th quarter being how clutch NVE is. Drbio, I agree I listen to all offers but I dont do it just to make a trade this off season to make some of the fans happy. Nash needs reduced minutes the only two guyz I can think of that will play backup are NVE and Bobby Jackson and we have NVE already. I will trade NVE but for just amount or more than NVE's value to this team and I think a backup pg is more valuable than a big man being that Nash is what makes the mavs engine go.

Drbio · 06-17-2002, 09:49 PM

Didn't mean to imply (if I did) that NVE was a scrub. I don't think I said that. His value is high right now and I think several teams are interested in him. I consider the trade offers, but I don't do it just to ship him off. But I do think it would be better to play him in place of Nash...not beside him. Just my opinion.

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 09:50 PM

Is this style of offense actually conducive to the mavs advancing to the finals?

Is NVE valuable as a PG or is he simply a shooting guard that dishes the ball sometimes as well?

Why is NVE more valuable than an inside presence? Is it that he's just more valuable in Nellie's system or is that the thinking around the league that a defensive inside presence isn't as valuable as a good PG?

I think if you answer these questions, you'll find out that your answers don't actually add up.

Rhylan · 06-17-2002, 10:00 PM

Well.... remember how I said you had to find a stupid GM to make something really work for Dallas? (Contingent upon a big man that Nellie likes being available in this year's draft, of course.)

Who is a stupid GM, who has done deals with Dallas before, who has a lottery pick right now?

My buddy Scott Layden. So let's explore some deals with NY that send out NVE and bring in the #7 pick. We'd probably have to send out another first rounder to sweeten the pot (but that's cool, because we'd be getting this year's #7).

NVE, future first rounder for Charlie Ward, Othella Harrington, and #7.
-- Works great for Dallas if #7 really is somebody.

NVE, Manning, future first rounder for Charlie Ward, Shandon Anderson.
-- Works well, but yet another swing guy in Anderson.. huge contract, but taking it might be necessary to make a deal go down.

Rhylan · 06-17-2002, 10:03 PM

Or..... if Dallas hopes that Dajuan Wagner is at #7.........

NVE, Manning, future first rounder for Camby, Harrington, and #7.

See, it just depends on whether or not there's a sucker born every minute.

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 10:05 PM

yeah, i remember you saying that Rhylan. I know alot of people are in love with NVE. I would like to see the mavs acquire a guy that can eat up 15 minutes a game that actually looks to distribute the ball first. maybe that's just a pipe dream.. it makes sense to me though, the mavs have all kinds of shooters and scorers on this team, why would they want a backup PG to look to shoot first when he can't shoot to begin with?

I'm not like alot of people. alot of people aren't interested in doing any business with New York. Well, right now seems to be the best time to do business with a team that is reeling..with a gm that is reeling a bit. explore making trades with them.

Rhylan · 06-17-2002, 10:11 PM

Exactly..... let's hope that Layden is kind of afraid to screw up the Knicks' first lottery pick since Ewing... and can get in NVE, a huge shot in the arm for their offense. NVE, Houston, and Sprewell ain't bad. He could unload an albatross contract and/or Charlie Ward and/or Marcus Camby... depending on who Dallas wants with #7. In this fantasy scenario, I'd rather see Ward come in to back up nash, since a rookie big man might be given more leeway by Nellie than a rookie PG. Assuming, of course, that there's a big man out there Nellie wants to draft. And other than Jay Williams and Wagner, who is a PG that is worth taking at #7?

So I say, let NY keep Camby, he's hurt all the time anyway. Camby/Thomas/Spree/Houston/NVE ain't a bad starting lineup even though they'd have no center. They don't have one now! Take Ward, #7, and someone NY doesn't want, for NVE, a future, and someone we don't want.

All relies, of course, upon this mysterious big man that Nellie wants to draft and play. That's what hangs up this whole deal. Hilario sure does sound good to me, though. If I was a GM.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-17-2002, 10:11 PM

<< Is this style of offense actually conducive to the mavs advancing to the finals?

Is NVE valuable as a PG or is he simply a shooting guard that dishes the ball sometimes as well?

Why is NVE more valuable than an inside presence? Is it that he's just more valuable in Nellie's system or is that the thinking around the league that a defensive inside presence isn't as valuable as a good PG?

I think if you answer these questions, you'll find out that your answers don't actually add up. >>

Murph, help me out here NVE is valuable period either way u look at it. Im not sure if u want to trade NVE or if u want to keep him. U make a post about how he must be traded but u go and say this "IF NVE can actually play the PG position instead of coming in and looking for his own shot first, then yes, I don't have a problem with him being here."

But then u go and say this "You can actually make the Mavs better without getting full value for NVE. "

Like the deal Rylan brought NVE and future first rounder for #7 Ward and Anderson. I willd o this trade but we dont get any beef like Murph wants. As an honest mavs fan I think Mavs can when a championship with the current roster and with Nellie being coach. I am still for seeing Nve and Lafrentz actually play a season with us rather than 40 games. We dont even really know how good our squad is being that we trade every trade deadline. Ive posted before I think we should look at Jerome James Mavs have given Shawn bradley a 40 mililon dollar contract and Esch a 28 mill well im sure we can get Jerome James not much but a lil bit a money and see how he works out.

Drbio · 06-17-2002, 10:14 PM

I'd like to see Hilario here...but it would take a miracle to get him.

Murphy3 · 06-17-2002, 10:14 PM

<< As an honest mavs fan I think Mavs can when a championship with the current roster and with Nellie being coach >>

this is the type of mindset that scares most mavs fans. Please, please let Nellie see that the mavs cannot afford to keep the same roster.

TheKid · 06-18-2002, 09:58 AM

Well keeping the same roster with adding something via free agency, I believe that will work, however if we don't make ANY MOVES and just draft someone, I'm not sure that will work. Here's the reason why, we all know how Cuban's mind work. We'll start the season out and when we're competitive we'll play the Lakers or Kings and have a weakness shown and guess what will happen come the last week in February, we'll make some sort of trade again and we'll be in the SAME BOAT AGAIN where we'll have to have players adjust in half a season again.

Then we'll be having this SAME discussion again next year about we have to have a team together for a full season. Listen, we know there are a few things we need to address definately.

1. Point guard issue getting Nash rest and backup: We know right now we have a great point guard and we have a serviceable back up and even another capable point guard on the bench in Avery Johnson. So "technically" we can win and win at a high level at that position.

2. Shooting guard position: Offensively we're fine here, we need to improve defensively here. However defensively Fin is servicable and we can put Buck defensively on a two guard and he can do an adequate job.

3. Small forward position: Probably the one position we have no consistency. Defensively right now we can defend at this position however we have inconsistent play here from the offensive end. This however I think can be rectified if NELLIE decides to get a starting lineup and sticks with it instead of interchanging it so much.

4. Power Forward position: offensively we are fine here, however defensively and rebounding since Raef gets into foul trouble we have little depth here if we lose Najera. Even with Najera coming off the bench for Raef what we gain from inserting Najera we still lose when Raef sits down. Therefore we need to add either here or at the five position.

5. Center position: When Dirk is here, we're fine offensively obviously. Defensively I do NOT like Dirk playing this position. NOT because I don't think he will improve but because to ask him to bang down low night in and night out I think will at some point wear him down.

Essentially if we don't add to our front line, we HAVE to get some utilization out of Esch and Bradley next year. If we don't, we're done. If we are going to use these two more and get use out of them, then I'm all for bringing in a consistent 3 but if we're not going to use these guys, then get them OUT OF HERE and bring in some more people for the front line.

I say all of this to say, NVE can be used as trade bait but right now we can use him and we get something out of him so I kind of vote for him to stay right now.

Murphy3 · 06-18-2002, 10:20 AM

Yes, if you can keep NVE and add someone to help the interior defense, that would be awesome. If that can be done, then yeah, that would be nice. However, I hope Nellie would use the PG situation a little more wisely next year instead of going small all the time

TheKid · 06-18-2002, 10:27 AM

I agree, the small ball thing was our worst nightmare at times.

Hoopsmeister · 06-18-2002, 10:54 AM

<< Well keeping the same roster with adding something via free agency, I believe that will work, however if we don't make ANY MOVES and just draft someone, I'm not sure that will work. Here's the reason why, we all know how Cuban's mind work. We'll start the season out and when we're competitive we'll play the Lakers or Kings and have a weakness shown and guess what will happen come the last week in February, we'll make some sort of trade again and we'll be in the SAME BOAT AGAIN where we'll have to have players adjust in half a season again. >>

I'm in basic agreement with all this Kid. I think the team needs to avoid major changes (especially in the middle of the season) but I will also be very disappointed if we don't bring in someone with the mid-level exception that will establish a real rotation at least through the first 7 players.

Murphy3 · 06-18-2002, 10:58 AM

IF the mavs can pick someone up that will help the interior defense via free agency, then hell yeah, i'm in favor of it.

TheKid · 06-18-2002, 11:23 AM

I'm in basic agreement with all this Kid. I think the team needs to avoid major changes (especially in the middle of the season) but I will also be very disappointed if we don't bring in someone with the mid-level exception that will establish a real rotation at least through the first 7 players.

Hoops this is the ONE thing I think everyone here is consistent with. The difference is that everyone is simply wanting to use the midlevel exception for different purposes.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-18-2002, 11:42 AM

Well yea of course I want help but what I mean by changes is continuing to trade. If NVE wants to be traded thats a whole different purpose but if we are goign to continue to trade every season its getting a bit old. I think a smart thing to do is get 2 guyz with our exception that can play on a consistent rotation. Tho no names come to mind taht we can get 2 for the exception. I like Matt Harpring, Malik Rose, and Lee Nailon all could help us out tremendously. Anyone of those names if we can get I will be happy and I cant wait to see TAW dominate the summer league well I hope he does.