Maverick's Trade/Draft Possibilities - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Bayliss · 06-20-2002, 09:09 AM

This was from ESPN Insider:

<< Q: With so many quality foreign players in the draft and Don Nelson's extensive knowledge of them, I cannot see Mark Cuban and Nellie simply sitting and watching them go to other teams. Any chance that the Mavs make a trade (Michael Finley, Nick Van Exel) to get into the first round? -- Jay, Plano, Texas

FORD: They are working very quietly, Jay. They have tried, unsuccessfully, to interject themselves into the Yao Ming sweepstakes. Forget Cuban's comments about Yao not being as good as Shawn Bradley. The Mavs would love to have him. Their main target now is Nene Hilario. The comparisons to Ben Wallace have them drooling. The team is desperate for a tough, low-post presence who isn't afraid to get nasty down low. Nene is a project offensively, but with the Mavs' multitude of weapons, they don't need him to do anything but run the floor, crash the glass and swat shots. Would teams like the Grizzlies, Nuggets or Cavs be willing to give up the No. 5 pick for Finley? They're making the phone calls. >>

I would really, really, really like this **if** we do not have to sacrifice Finley to get him. Your thoughts?

Nellie · 06-20-2002, 09:56 AM

Reasons why this trade would be ridiculous:

1) Finley is more valuable to us then Hilario.

2) NVE would be playing a lot more alongside Nash instead of backing him up with Finley gone.

3) As we saw with Harvey, Nellie doesn't play young, athletic, rebounding types too often.

Bayliss · 06-20-2002, 09:59 AM

<< As we saw with Harvey, Nellie doesn't play young, athletic, rebounding types too often. >>

But the difference between Hilario and Harvey is 3 inxhes, Hilario's ability to block shots, and the ability to one day guard power forwards and center.

MavsFanFinley · 06-20-2002, 10:10 AM

I would really, really, really like this **if** we do not have to sacrifice Finley to get him. Your thoughts?

If they plan on getting that high in the draft, Finley would have to be used for it. I would be extremely pissed if they trade Finley before NVE, though. On the other hand, wouldn't be surprised either.

It would be nice if the Mavs brought in a young prospect like Hilario to groom, so to speak...I just have a hard time seeing him get the minutes with Nelson.

We had Etan Thomas and Donnell Harvey and they couldn't get up off the bench. I know Thomas had the toe thing, but they didn't stick around to see how he'd do.

I know it's like comparing apples and oranges, but still...

Murphy3 · 06-20-2002, 10:17 AM

perhaps nellie thinks much more of hilario than thomas or harvey.

(i'm not advocating trading finley, just pointing out that he might not have a hard time at all of getting off of the bench... we don't know what nellie thinks of the guy)

Base Line Guy · 06-20-2002, 10:27 AM

I would much rather see NVE moved than Fin too

BLG

Nellie · 06-20-2002, 10:27 AM

You still have to wonder how Hilario fits into the rotation. He would have to be a 4 or a 5. Dirk has to play the 4 because he is a defensive liability. That means that Raef has to play the 5. Assuming you trade Finley for Hilario, where would he even get the minutes?

I won't even comment on the possibility of trading Finley for Hilario and not re-signing Raef. I would sell my season tickets right then and there.

Murphy3 · 06-20-2002, 10:36 AM

<< I would much rather see NVE moved than Fin too >>

i think it's obvious that everyone would rather NVE be moved. However, NVE may not be want other teams would want in trade.

i'm not advocating moving finley, just showing the reason why finley was mentioned instead of NVE in the possible trade

MavsFanFinley · 06-20-2002, 10:37 AM

perhaps nellie thinks much more of hilario than thomas or harvey.

That's why I said it's like comparing apples and oranges. They might see something in Hilario that they didn't in Thomas or Harvey.

Still, I have a hard time seeing this guy (or any addition) come in and get the minutes, especially a 4/5 guy with Raef and Dirk already here.

What about Najera?

I guess a large part has to do with whether our front court stays the same.

Drbio · 06-20-2002, 11:02 AM

I ouwldn't move Finley for the #1 pick.....there is noone in this draft that is worth Finley. I would package NVE and some of our 5-10 guys for Hilario plus.

MavKikiNYC · 06-20-2002, 11:13 AM

Yes, exactly.

Or NVE/dreck for a low (11-13) lottery?

TheKid · 06-20-2002, 11:21 AM

Or NVE/dreck for a low (11-13) lottery?

This seems to be the most realistic, but with Nellie's insistence on not wanting to use young guys does it really mean that much to get a low lottery pick?

MavKikiNYC · 06-20-2002, 11:30 AM

<< Or NVE/dreck for a low (11-13) lottery?

This seems to be the most realistic, but with Nellie's insistence on not wanting to use young guys does it really mean that much to get a low lottery pick? >>

True.

Although if they went to the trouble of making such a trade, I'd have to think it would be for someone they intended to use.

But yeah....all this rehash of Etan Thomas and Donnell Harvey and how they weren't used at all makes me think a Hilario scenario is less likely.

seelenjaeger · 06-20-2002, 11:32 AM

Actually I think NVE for a 11-13 pick would just be a waste of talent. Maybe it´s just my opinion, but you *should* be able to get a lot more for NVE. Maybe if you package him and a future first rounder and by taking salary garbage in return he should be worth atleast something around 6 to 4 in this draft.

And why not go after Ely in this draft?

MavKikiNYC · 06-20-2002, 11:46 AM

Seelen..

I'm not sure that NVE IS worth more than a low lottery pick. That actually sounds about right to me.

But the motive for moving him wouldn't be just to get equal talent for talent. Mavs would be trying to get out from under his contract, AND get a player with more complementary talents.

Plus, NVE is 30+, and given the type of player he is that relies on quickness to get off a shot, I'm thinking that his prime playing days are numbered. They should definitely be looking to move him by mid-season.

TheKid · 06-20-2002, 11:51 AM

And why not go after Ely in this draft?

He is an interesting fellow. The ONE thing people are worried about him is that he'll get lazy because he's shown the tendency to be lazy before but he would be GREAT for the low post and he's going to be around either late lottery or he may even be around right after the lottery, but I would be willing to trade away Van Exel to get a player like Ely.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-20-2002, 12:34 PM

There is no way in hell I even trade for the number 1 pick for Finley. The only real player I see in this draft is Jay Williams and I guess u can say Mike Dunleavy but he wouldnt be an upgrade to Raef Lafrentz. I dont know much about HIlario but I would rather still suck at rebounding than trade Finley for him. ESPN wants u to pay for the insider when they feed out bull shit. If for Nick all we can get is a 11-12 pick then we might as well wait and get Nick for soemone who is experienced rather than an 11-12 pick who is more than likely gonna be a scrub.

seelenjaeger · 06-20-2002, 12:44 PM

well, the main problem i have with those trades for draft picks is, that usually most of the guys in the draft are just role players and complementary guys.

nick van E a role player? definately not.
nick van E a complementary guy? again a clear no.

Let´s say each draft has roughly 3-5 guys with all-star caliber, that a maximum of about 1 per position.

IS nick the quick possible of getting an all-star berth in future years? Maybe, maybe not. Actually he´s closer to getting none anymore, still he´s putting up numbers that just might put him close to getting this call.

Talentwise I think there will hardly be 5 guys who are better ball-players than Nick in this draft. Youth is a good point - but actually, if you throw in a future first rounder you actually have done that youth argument, PLUS a team like Golden State or others mighty unload contracts.

That´s still close to beeing a good offer to me.

I think Ely fits bets to the mavs in the late lottery to mid draft picks. I´d like to add Dunleavy to the Mavs though (not for fin), but that´s just ... unreal.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-20-2002, 12:48 PM

And also I dont even think Cavs would trade there 5th pick for Finley they might just give it away for Bradely or someone lol. Cavs as I hear are trying to get Lebron James so being he is gonna the the first pick if he leaves high school next year they are gonna have to suck bad to get him which shouldnt be hard for them.

Drbio · 06-20-2002, 12:58 PM

The Cavs will suck again this year...mark it down.

I think the Mavs have a sign and trade deal in place involving Wang. Since Wang is not going to play for the Mavs, it seems like the team is allowing him to play on another squad (I hear Wang is playing in the summer league...just not for us). This screams audition. Maybe NVE and a sign and trade involving Wang grabs Olawakandi plus? Who knows....it's just too odd for coincidence.

Stressboy91 · 06-20-2002, 02:51 PM

I think there are lots of ways to get a low lottery pick without giving up the big 3, it just means taking on some risk and salary. For instance, a trade with NY of NVE/LaFrentz/Manning/2nd rounder for #7/rights to Fredrick Weis/Camby/Mark Jackson/Harrington is easy to get done becuase it favors NY, but if you really want that young stud and you don't want to give up one of the big 3 then you could live with that move.

If they really want a banger or maybe that starting SF of the future and they don't think LaFrentz is the guy to get it done, then pull the trigger. With Camby, if you can keep him healthy he is just as good as LaFrentz and probably runs the floor a little better, just does not shoot the 3. If Hillario is there at 7 take him, if not take Butler. Either way I think you are a much stronger team down the road and you might even be stronger with Camby/Harrington helping you in the post this year.

If a sign and trade is in the works for Zi Zi for a mid 1st rounder, I'm all for it given the lack of consitencey he has had in being able to work out and play all 82 games.

TheKid · 06-20-2002, 02:56 PM

With Camby, if you can keep him healthy he is just as good as LaFrentz

Camby and healthy should NEVER be mentioned in the same sentence. Also even though LaFrentz gets in foul trouble alot, I'll take him over Camby because at the end of the season, they both give you about the same amount of minutes. Camby because he'll spend half the season on IR and LaFrentz in foul trouble.

Another thing about Camby, I don't think there is another big man out there who I've seen duck my hits. Camby can make a LIVING at the free throw line but he's always moving out of the way, double pumping and throwing up something ridiculous.

Sorry, I'll take La Frentz ANY day of the week over Camby.

MavKikiNYC · 06-20-2002, 02:59 PM

Lol...

I've never been one to sing the praises of LaF, but I don't think I'd deal him straight-up for Camby.

madape · 06-20-2002, 03:32 PM

I don't know how much I beleive that rumor. Hilario does not seem like a fit at all here. Cuban may be making some phone calls, but I would think that sensible minds would prevail if a real trade were on the table. I've read that Hilario is only 6'9", so he really wouldn't be able to guard Duncan and Shaq any better than Raef.. plus I'm sure Raef and Bradley give us better shot blocking in the post.

It seems like everyone is assuming that if the Mavs make an aggressive move in this draft, it will be for a big man. But I don't see anyone besides Ming that has the potential to improve the Mavs situation in the middle.. even in the long run. Let the other teams with REAL problems at center overpay for the big unproven foreign centers. There are bigger problems on this team.

Murphy3 · 06-20-2002, 03:58 PM

<< I've read that Hilario is only 6'9", so he really wouldn't be able to guard Duncan and Shaq any better than Raef >>

I dont' know alot about this guy but shaq has admitted that Power Forwards give him alot of trouble..including Brian Grant.

so i'm sure that 6'9" is tall enough to give shaq trouble if the player is gifted enough in that aspect of his game

Murphy3 · 06-20-2002, 04:01 PM

one reason I would think the mavs would like to move into the draft is because there's a limited window for this core trio to win a title before either fin and/or nash starts to decline at a decent clip.. however, when this occurs, you will have dirk near or at his prime.

Now, I don't necessarily think that moving up in the draft to improve the team in the future is the way to go.. i'm probably more concerned about these next 1-3 years. I agree, the mave probably need to look over here to find someone that can provide some muscle in the middle

Dooby · 06-20-2002, 04:09 PM

Murph, I think you overstate the 1-3 year window. Dirk is 24. Yes, Nash and Fin are older. Everyone else is irrelevant. I think you are thinking too much about Nash's health. I think when the time comes to get a replacement for Nash, we will be able to do it.

For me the issue is Dirk. I don't think Dirk will be at his overall best for another 3 years (OMG). So, yeah, I want to win now. But I think our window is still opening rather than closing.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-20-2002, 04:18 PM

YAE I agree Malone and Stockton arent as good as they were back then but they are still top 5 players in there position in my opinion. I think Finley and Nash have atleast 4-5 years declining if they are going to be declining at all at that age.

TheKid · 06-20-2002, 04:25 PM

Well no one thinks they'll be terrible in four or five years, however let's say four years, Fin will be 33 and Nash 32. They can still be very good at that age but will they be in their prime, I don't think so. Now will Dirk be a monster HELL YES! So maybe he'll make for some of their declining, however let's be realistic, if the Mavs go another three hell TWO years without winning a WCF, they're breaking this team up.

Cuban will NOT keep this team together for the next four or five years without getting to a championship. So we can throw out the fact whether or not they'll be at their prime or not. That's more my concern than how they'll be playing.

So they have to make a SIGNIFICANT move in the next year or two to get them atleast into the WCF and win one.

Drbio · 06-20-2002, 04:29 PM

OMG...this group of guys has SEVERAL productive years ahead of them. They are babies in NBA terms.

David · 06-20-2002, 05:37 PM

<< The Cavs will suck again this year...mark it down.

I think the Mavs have a sign and trade deal in place involving Wang. Since Wang is not going to play for the Mavs, it seems like the team is allowing him to play on another squad (I hear Wang is playing in the summer league...just not for us). This screams audition. Maybe NVE and a sign and trade involving Wang grabs Olawakandi plus? Who knows....it's just too odd for coincidence. >>

IF Wang plays in the NBA next year, he plays for the Mavs. Mark it down.

Bayliss · 06-20-2002, 07:16 PM

Taken from NBA Draft.net

<< NBA Comparison: Hakeem Olajuwon

Strengths: A player with unlimited potential. Very fluid athlete with an imposing physical prescense. Looks between 6-9, 6-10. Reminds of Hakeem the way he runs the floor, and his clever offensive game. Passes well. Knows how to score. Very good shot blocker with long arms and excellent timing. 7-4 3/4 wingspan. Upperbody/frame is very impressive and appears to have room to gain another 20 to 30 pounds. Can face the basket and take the ball off the dribble with decent handle, but his future is in the post. Has excellent touch around the basket, decent mid-range shooter. Doesn't get intimidated. At 19, has a good court sense, confidence, and feel for the game, and looks like he can improve immensely.

Weaknesses: Must become better at anticipating rebounds. Needs to gain more consistency, learn better defensive technique, (besides shot blocking and taking charges). Has very good feet, but must develop better footwork in the post and positioning for rebounds. Shot mechanics seem to need refinement, (free throw shot has a slight hitch, but it's not horrible) The makings are there but must develop a bona fide killer instinct.

Notes: Contract with Brazilian team Vasco da Gama might be a catch for Nene to begin his NBA career. Nene is currently working out in Cleveland preparing for the 2002 NBA Draft.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Vinicius Fontana:

This year he played for the Brazilian National team, making a great impact in the South American tournament, Americas Cup, and Goodwill Games. He is a very athetic player (very smooth, quick, and a great leaper). He's a spectacular shot-blocker and a natural rebounder, extremely aggressive on the offensive boards but a strong defender too. The player in the NBA he reminds me of is Kenyon Martin, only he has more offensive skills.

Weakness - should improve his jump-shot around the basket and take a special atention on the free throw line where his best Shaq impression can be seen. >>

He's also been compared to Ben Wallace. I'd take him over **any** of the power forwards in the entire draft. The only one I'd really have to give serious consideration over him is Skita.

And I don't quite understand why some of y'all feel he wouldn't "fit in" with the Mavs. He gives us shotblocking (something Nellie looks for in big men)... he gives us rebounding... he gives us toughness. and he gives us defense... wow if he can hit the 10-15 footer with semi consistency, Raef may be on the bench for long stretches.

Murphy3 · 06-20-2002, 07:23 PM

<< OMG...this group of guys has SEVERAL productive years ahead of them. They are babies in NBA terms >>

of course they have several productive years ahead of them.. however, two of them are at their prime.. if the mave don't win it in the next 3-4 years, they'll have to make some additions to the core.

that's why i'm looking to go for the title now... not because they won't be capable of doing so in a few years, but because THEY ARE capable of doing so now

David · 06-20-2002, 07:28 PM

If you use Utah as an example some players can play to a high level for a long time. If I'm not mistaken, Fin and NVE are the oldest at around 30. Fin is 29, I believe and NVE is probably out the door. I think the window of opportunity is wider than you do, is what I'm trying to say. Teams should always look to upgrade.

Murphy3 · 06-20-2002, 07:30 PM

of course they should always look to upgrade... however, i think after the window that i'm talking about ends, the mavs will need to make a major upgrade to add to dirk in his prime and fin and nash who are probably declining a bit by then..

however, my point is that they have fin and nash in their prime now and dirk is getting closer and closer... that's why i'd like to see them go for it now..

Drbio · 06-20-2002, 08:03 PM

Yes. They are in the prime window. And yes...you should always look to upgrade your team, which is why standing pat right now for this team spells a repeat exit in the playoffs.

Murphy3 · 06-20-2002, 08:07 PM

which is my piont... this window with nash and fin will close after awhile (3-4 years)..when that happens, the mavs will have to add to the core.... sure, they'll be able to compete if they can add to the core in 3-4 years..but right now, they are close enough to where they are missing just one ingredient. No, it's not a shaq stopper, but they do need more of an inside presence

Drbio · 06-20-2002, 08:15 PM

pretty much agree...but I would also like to see another back up for Nash when and if we trade NVE.

Murphy3 · 06-20-2002, 08:17 PM

a backup pg to play 15 minutes or so..of course

Drbio · 06-20-2002, 08:19 PM

That's about right...15-20 minutes.