mavs offensive issues - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 01-20-2003, 06:47 PM

yes, the mavs put up alot of points per game..mostly because of alot of shots per game..taking care of the ball..and having some pretty good shooters..and getting on the fast break.

that being said, the mavs have absolutely no idea what they want to do when they get the ball in the half court set. At times, it appears that the guards think that dirk is rubbing his butt in some defender's crotch down on the low blocks just for entertainment purporses.

the mavs seriously need to find some sort of half court identity.. personally, i believe more has to be run through dirk on the low post.. but that's just my opinion.
the problem is, the indecisiveness comes from the top. Nellie doesn't have a clear idea of what he's doing in the half court set..nash surely doesn't have a clear idea...NVE doesn't either...nash and NVE are effective when they are hot but struggle to disbrute the ball at times in the half court set.

what's the answer? any thoughts?

Chiwas · 01-20-2003, 07:53 PM

<< ...nash and NVE are effective when they are hot but struggle to disbrute the ball at times in the half court set. >>

They were effective in some games, but I can't remember when was the last time, and I saw them struggling last night, indeed.

LRB · 01-20-2003, 08:05 PM

Murphy: I'll say this. It looks like Nellie has been trying some new offensive schemes on for size lately. The 4 corner isolation for the guard at the top, and some others. However, it's beginning to look like the mirror is telling Nellie that these offensive schemes make his butt look very fat and he should try something else.

Dirk in the post has been know to have a slimming effect as has tall ball.

Murphy3 · 01-20-2003, 08:13 PM

i'm already tired of the 4 corner guard iso play..
more offense has to come from the low post or the team is in trouble when they are forced to play a considerable amount of half court ball

LRB · 01-20-2003, 08:34 PM

The trouble with the Mavs offensive efforts lately is that it seems that we are making it easier and not harder for the defense to guard us. The 4 corners set makes it very easy to guard and even to help out when we wait so late in the shot clock to make our move. We can't pass out then and are committed to taken a contested shot. When doubled, we often committ turnovers. At least it seems more turnovers than assists. We almost never get any open shots. And we have practically zero change of an offensive rebound.

I also think that all the standing around on offensive during our isolation sets is rubbing off on our defense. Players get used to just standing and watching. We need to be moving and active on both ends. When we are, we play our best. Maybe Dirk can try to seek in a hotdog or 2 during the next 4 corners set.

dude1394 · 01-20-2003, 09:01 PM

LRB/Murph: I thing you'all are really right on. It seemed last year especially when mike was out it was pretty defined how they were going to score down the stretch, high pick and roll with dirk/steve.

Question is that either they weren't paid a lot of attention to (until the playoffs) or something has changed or something else. They just really closed out games last year.

I agree about the 4 corners and the standing around. There's just not a lot of movement without the ball out there right now. Najera will help, but he wasn't there the first 14 games either and it just seemed so much easier.

Was it the leastern conference only??

dude1394 · 01-20-2003, 09:04 PM

What's weird is rigedeau said they had an inch thick playbook???????? Where is it??

What we need is a knowledgeable person to do a treatise on what they are really trying to do. I can't believe they are running that 4 corner that much. They were starting to struggle before that set came in. When is the last time a weave happened?? Of course maybe the whole thing is a loss of confidense after the shellacking they took.

LRB · 01-20-2003, 09:05 PM

<< Was it the leastern conference only?? >>

Milwaukee beat us at home partly because we couldn't score when we needed to in the stretch. I think Nellie is trying some new things, I just don't think that they work. They are very low percent and do have many side benefits. Unless you want to count the rest factor at the offensive end for 4 players in the isolation sets.

Murphy3 · 01-20-2003, 09:06 PM

sure, najera will help some..
to be honest, i haven't seen nearly as much of the pick and roll with dirk and steve as of late..and i surely haven't seen enough of dirk being posted up.

basically, the mavs have a stagnant half court offense..they have no half court offensive identity....sure, that's partly the players fault but nellie seems reluctant to stick with anything other than consistantly loving the small guard look

LRB · 01-20-2003, 09:14 PM

I would like to see less that 10 plays. Some good ones are:

1. Transition. This is great when we can get it. Would like to see more of the delayed break too. How about running Dirk down the middle like the kings do Webber?

2. High pick and roll. Nash and Dirk can just kill teams with this. We seem to have gone away from it. Why?

3. Post Dirk. Dirk's passing is really coming on as is his post play. He commands double teams and frees teammates for open shots. He can also hit cutting teammates.

4. Post Bradley in the Medium Post. Shawn is an excellent passer from here because of his height. We must have cutters and screens and picks going to free people though. We also need to get the ball to Shawn with plenty of time on the shot clock.

5. Low pick and roll with Shawn and Fin. This has worked well for us this year.

6. Tall ball with high low. Also has been real effective. Plus is we have size for rebounding and interior defense.

All of these plays emphasize more team movement and involement. They all make it harder not easier for teams to guard us. We need to us more of them. Especially option #3 IMO.

dude1394 · 01-20-2003, 09:22 PM

They sound good. I think if you really go and look you can see that dirk/steve ARE doing the high pick and roll a lot. What seems to happen is that the other team is waiting for dirk to make his move to the lane and then he's blasted. Also getting very few calls. It would be interesting to see dirk/nash pass out and then repost a little lower.

It would also be nice if dirk had a little jump hook or something besides a fall-away or drive to the basket. I would also like to see dirk put some fakes on in the paint. He just seems to committ and go, a little out of control sometimes.

MFFL · 01-20-2003, 09:25 PM

I've seen two many plays recently where the person bringing the ball up (NVE and Nash are the prime culprits) have just shot the ball. Zero passing.

LRB · 01-20-2003, 09:30 PM

Dude: good points. I too would like to see more passing out and reposting. And I definitely think a jump hook should be on Holger's list for this summer. Just don't know how much Dirk can effectively add mid season. But with him, who knows. Lets see if we can get Holger overhere for a couple of weeks as see. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Dirk does need to learn to have a little more patience and control in the post. Mostly he needs game reps and lots of them. Since we don't exactly have any other imposing post players who regularly command double teams, I don't think this should be too much of a problem. Dirk needs to find his rhythm in the post. He's currently getting it too infrequently to do so IMO.

LRB · 01-20-2003, 09:32 PM

<< I've seen two many plays recently where the person bringing the ball up (NVE and Nash are the prime culprits) have just shot the ball. Zero passing. >>

Yeah, I know what you're talking about MFFL. I've seen Dirk with his man pinned with excellent low post position and the guard hoists up a contested 3. I can't figure that one.

Murphy3 · 01-20-2003, 09:39 PM

yeah..i would love to see the mavs actually use the pass out of the post and then directly re-post.
i was screaming at the TV last night telling nash to wait a second and give the ball directly back to dirk..
but, it didn't work

MFFL · 01-20-2003, 09:40 PM

And that's coaching. If the coach doesn't stop the players from doing that kind of crap then it never gets corrected.

MFFL · 01-20-2003, 09:40 PM

One thing I've noticed about Dirk in the post - he never gets deeper in the post when he passes out. I wonder why?

Chiwas · 01-20-2003, 09:42 PM

It seems as if suddenly they had forgot everything. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

Murphy3 · 01-20-2003, 09:43 PM

exactly MFFL
nellie is going to have to have some control over the team..and some patience.

dirk has the ability to be dominant down low..he just needs the in game repetition

Murphy3 · 01-20-2003, 09:45 PM

haha..well, when dirk passes out of the post, the mavs usually shoot the ball too quick for him to re-post

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

not sure why, mffl..to be honest..i guess it's not part of the mavs offensive strategy

dude1394 · 01-20-2003, 09:48 PM

I think dirk is awesome but he's young and there are at least two things I would like to see him do.

1. When moving into the lane, stop his dribble pick it up and fake once or twice, ala vlade. He's good with both hands but he's usually just hell-bent to get in the lane and shoot it.

2. He gets so much respect on his outside shot that he gets a lot of folks up in the air. He could do some major damage fouling guys out if he would take it up ala reggie miller.

Other than that, he's perfect. ;^)

kg_veteran · 01-20-2003, 09:50 PM

This is a great question: What offensive scheme are the Mavs running out there?

I know it's an exaggeration to say that the Mavericks NEVER run plays, but what has really bogged the offense down lately has been the two PG set. Neither guy really knows who's supposed to initiate the offense, and one of them ends up freelancing and trying to jack up a shot in an isolation situation.

Things I'd like to see:

I'd like to see the Mavericks running Michael Finley off of picks to get him some open jumpshots as opposed to him having to jack up fadeaways over a defender's outstretched arm. I'd like to see the Mavs set screens for Nash as well when he's off the ball to get him free. The screen and roll is always a great idea, but teams have started to defend it by simply switching, knowing that the Mavericks won't dump the ball down to Dirk. Also, they will double Steve, knowing that he'll wildly try to dribble into traffic rather than swing the ball.

And of course, it'd be awfully nice if the Mavs would funnel a greater portion of their offense through Dirk on the block. Dirk doesn't have to shoot every time. His very presence on the block creates double teams, and Dirk has increasingly shown an ability to find cutters and open men from the post. And then when teams do leave him single-covered, Dirk has definitely shown an ability to get to the hoop in a number of different ways. Plus, with Dirk in the post, his FT attempts can only increase.

Things I do not want to see much of any more:

Fin isolated against his man on the left wing, only to dribble twice to his left and pull up for the 20 foot fadeaway.

Nash isolated on his man, driving into traffic and throwing up the wild layup over all the big guys.

Nash and Van Exel (or any other Mavericks) shooting three pointers when the ball hasn't been thrown inside first.

Those are just a few of the thoughts on this topic that were running through my head...

MFFL · 01-20-2003, 09:51 PM

Yeah I've noticed that Dirk is starting to do a little bit of the fall away stuff ala Finley. He should lean INTO contact instead of away from it.

Murphy3 · 01-20-2003, 09:55 PM

mffl, i think alot of that comes with repetition for dirk..gaining confidence..

and dirk has shown that when the mavs run more of the offense through him down low that he can pass that ball...

it may require a little patience from nellie, but you have to further develop dirk down low

more of the team's offense has to run through him instead of nash trying to break everyone down off of the dribble...

LRB · 01-20-2003, 10:03 PM

<< it may require a little patience from nellie, but you have to further develop dirk down low >>

Murphy: it may indeed require a little patience, but Nellie has stuck with this unproductive 4 corner crap for so long, I just wish he could give Dirk in the post half as much chance. I'm sure that we'd get much better results over the same time period.

dude1394 · 01-20-2003, 10:06 PM

<< Things I'd like to see:

I'd like to see the Mavericks running Michael Finley off of picks to get him some open jumpshots as opposed to him having to jack up fadeaways over a defender's outstretched arm. >>

I'm not sure that Finley CAN hit shots off of picks, unless it is pretty close to the paint. He usually has to be setup. I just can't remember very many.

<< I'd like to see the Mavs set screens for Nash as well when he's off the ball to get him free. >>

Be careful with this, that's the idea of the two pg set. To get nash shots off of picks and passes. ;^)

<< The screen and roll is always a great idea, but teams have started to defend it by simply switching, knowing that the Mavericks won't dump the ball down to Dirk. Also, they will double Steve, knowing that he'll wildly try to dribble into traffic rather than swing the ball. >>

I think this still works fine and the mas do dump the ball down to dirk. He just hasn't been that effective lately.

<< And of course, it'd be awfully nice if the Mavs would funnel a greater portion of their offense through Dirk on the block. Dirk doesn't have to shoot every time. His very presence on the block creates double teams, and Dirk has increasingly shown an ability to find cutters and open men from the post. And then when teams do leave him single-covered, Dirk has definitely shown an ability to get to the hoop in a number of different ways. Plus, with Dirk in the post, his FT attempts can only increase. >>

I agree about all except his FT's have not been increasing. For some reason he is not getting many calls at all. You can see why webber gripes about it, getting bashed in the lane and getting nothing, what's the point.

<< Things I do not want to see much of any more:

Fin isolated against his man on the left wing, only to dribble twice to his left and pull up for the 20 foot fadeaway.
Amen brotha'

Nash isolated on his man, driving into traffic and throwing up the wild layup over all the big guys. This one I don't mind terribly if he gets on with it and kicks it out when covered. Of course someone has to hit something

Nash and Van Exel (or any other Mavericks) shooting three pointers when the ball hasn't been thrown inside first. agreed

Those are just a few of the thoughts on this topic that were running through my head... >>

dude1394 · 01-20-2003, 10:14 PM

<<

<< it may require a little patience from nellie, but you have to further develop dirk down low >>

Murphy: it may indeed require a little patience, but Nellie has stuck with this unproductive 4 corner crap for so long, I just wish he could give Dirk in the post half as much chance. I'm sure that we'd get much better results over the same time period. >>

Has anyone actually charted this? I would love to actually have some numbers and then compare it to shaq/duncan for example. I'm wondering if we are too close to it.

Murphy3 · 01-20-2003, 10:20 PM

dude, i had some numbers tracked for dirk early in the year..it was somewhere between 60-65% of the time that dirk shot the ball from the low block he either made the basket or got to the FT line..but, that was through 15-20 games..
i'll start to keep up with it

FilthyFinMavs · 01-20-2003, 10:28 PM

Nellie uses Dirk just like Portland uses Wallace. Both will go no where if they continue to play there most dominant inside guys out behind the 3 point line all the time. Wallace could be a different case I hear he just wants to sit out there but if he were to play his role inside Blazers would be hell right now.

dude1394 · 01-20-2003, 10:36 PM

<< dude, i had some numbers tracked for dirk early in the year..it was somewhere between 60-65% of the time that dirk shot the ball from the low block he either made the basket or got to the FT line..but, that was through 15-20 games..
i'll start to keep up with it >>

I'll take some time on it as well. What I'm really interested in is what percentage of the time the offense runs through dirk versus shaq/duncan for example. I agree his production is fine there.

Murphy3 · 01-20-2003, 10:39 PM

dude, i'll track it as well..i know it's not remotely close to shaq/duncan..but i'll see what i can find out

OutletPass · 01-20-2003, 10:51 PM

Got to agree with most of the posts here...

My pet peeve is the passing and ball movement. It just seems to have totally disappeared lately. Used to be somewhat of a strength, now seems like more of a weakness.

Sacto does such a good job with it, they seem to always get easy buckets. Granted that they overdo it at times with all the too-flashy stuff, but there are times when the ball never touches the floor.

This isn't to say that I expect Shawn or Raef to become a Vlade type passer, but I would hope that we can get back to more ball movement instead of the iso playing.

I'm having a VERY hard time understanding what's going on lately...and I don't pretend to know what it is. LRB and I have exchanged a lot of PM's lately on this very subject...it's almost like something is going on internally that we know nothing about.

So many questions.

jayC · 01-20-2003, 11:07 PM

Maybe a little switch up with avery johnson he was a good back up earlier during the streak. He has a pretty good left move to the basket. He might be the better half court player.

I think they need to post nick and nash both are good post players and can usually get what they want on opposing guards let's see it some more. The mavs aren't the spurs , they are the mavs because they exploit the matchup with post-ups.

And where is finley at the line earlier in the season he was going to the hoop not just with the dribble, but floating toward the ball and grabbing the rebound and putting it back. Finley where are you?

Murphy3 · 01-20-2003, 11:11 PM

i would love to see AJ get some PT..i've been screaming about that all year.

all AJ does is get good looks for himself and teammates out of the half court set..
...you can't ask for anything more from a PG.

many of the things that have been brought up..the exact reasons why i want nellie out

Fidel · 01-21-2003, 07:54 AM

Let´s face it. Our offense needs a complete makeover. All the things KG and Murph and others mentioned I agree with. But those are just details. If you´d take away that Finley play at the left side, which is really annoying cause he almost never gets a good shot out of it, you´d still be stuck with the other crap. Like 4 corners, not posting anyone up, not giving the ball to Dirk down low. Even when this offense is clicking (like it has for some part of the season) it still relys heavily on the jumpshot. The whole concept is flawed. It won´t work in the playoffs, because against real good teams it will be very difficult to get consistent shooting for a complete series.

Other teams do adjust, and that´s the problem with our "everyone has the green light, let´s shoot it all the time" style. We can´t really adjust. What makes it worse is that our lack of set plays makes it impossible at times to play our strenghts. We allways have to take "what´s there", and quickly, because that is the concept of our offense. As soon as the opponents D has settled down we are in big trouble. That is a huge reason why we often don´t go with the hot hand. We can´t really work a play for the specific player. Opposing defenses will give us something else instead, they trap us, knowing that we want to score quick, because we don´t have any halfcourt offense. The result has been some ill advised, under pressure, low percantage shot more often than not over the last games.

As if it wasn´t enough, this not working style of play severly weakens our defense, because of the type of players you need to run it. Those players like Williams, NVE, Nash, Finley are a huge liability on D when more than two of them are on court together. So there are really only negatives to this style of play, call it smallball, underdog ball, run and gun or whatever. The only positives would be that it is fun to watch and it does win you games in the reagular season if the shots are falling. But even those wins won´t come as often, since other teams do adjust and we can´t due to the lack of halfcourt offense and set plays in general. In the postseason, against someone like Sac we´ll be lost with this style of play.

Conclusion: Nellie won´t change his ways, so he must go. I don´t even want to see Donnie take over, cause I´m afraid that really wouldn´t change much. I´d like to see a new coach installed in the offseason (which gives Nellie this final last chance, if he wins it all I´ll be happy to eat crow) who implements a complete new system. Like I said before, Jerry Sloan would be my favorite, but it´s highly unlikely that we could get him.

Murphy3 · 01-21-2003, 09:58 AM

fidel..solid post..i'm not sure about jerry sloan (not saying yes or no at this point on him)

is it just me or has your English improved significantly over the past year or so

<< Let´s face it. Our offense needs a complete makeover. All the things KG and Murph and others mentioned I agree with. But those are just details. If you´d take away that Finley play at the left side, which is really annoying cause he almost never gets a good shot out of it, you´d still be stuck with the other crap. Like 4 corners, not posting anyone up, not giving the ball to Dirk down low. Even when this offense is clicking (like it has for some part of the season) it still relys heavily on the jumpshot. The whole concept is flawed. It won´t work in the playoffs, because against real good teams it will be very difficult to get consistent shooting for a complete series. >>

great paragraph

dude1394 · 01-21-2003, 10:59 AM

I can't agree with the complete makeover statement at all. I have not seen the proof that scoring significantly decreases in the playoffs, i'm open to seeing it.

Also unlike the boston celtics who rely almost entirely on the outside shot, the mavs have been very consistent. They don't run off 5 wins/5 losses etc.

IF you REALLY want a complete makeover of the offense, then you are also advocating at least 2-3 years where we will not be competing for a championship. You just cannot make that type of transition and expect continuity. IMHO...

SeriousSummer · 01-21-2003, 12:57 PM

Teams have learned how to stop the Mavericks. Fidel has most of it right.

First, you double team Dirk in the post(the double teams are why he's shooting so many difficult fade aways). Dirk is real good, but he isn't strong enough (yet?) to power through the double teams.

You don't guard Griffin or Bradley if they're in the game. Someone guards the basket and someone guards Fin & Nash. Unless Grif or Bradley shows they can make (and are willing to take) the open shot (and they can't or won't), then posting Dirk doesn't work. Running the pick and roll comes to the same thing. Just leave Grif (or Bell) and Bradley and make the Mavs play 3 on 5 offense. Same thing goes for the isolation for Finley (although the way he's been playing lately, he can't even get by his own man to challenge the help defender).

So now the Mavericks have three choices:

1) Pull Griffen and Bradley and replace them with someone the defense has to respect. Right now (with Najera hurt & Rigadeau not ready to play), that means Nick & Raef (or maybe the Wizard). Now you can score a little, but the defense suffers seri-ously.

2) Run a different offense. The problem is that there aren't many defenses that work 3 on 5. The spread, maybe. The low post if you've got Shaq or some other real horse down low. But even then the Lakers have always depending on having enough good outside shooters to make you pay for doubling on Shaq. Or if you can run it doesn't matter.

3) Stick with the offense, play defense, and grind it out.

Anyway, until Eddie gets back and/or Rigadeau can help and/or Grif and Bradley show they can hit the open shot and/or Nelson invents some new wrinkle, the Mavericks are going to have to work for what they get.

dude1394 · 01-21-2003, 01:07 PM

Nicely done.....serious... ;^)

Fidel · 01-21-2003, 01:50 PM

<< is it just me or has your English improved significantly over the past year or so >>

Thank you Murphy.