Nellie is biased - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Yushi · 02-26-2003, 01:48 PM

I seriously believe that Nellie has some kind of man-love for NVE.

Granted Shawn and Raef does tend to have bad nights alot and Nellie never have to think twice to pull them out of the game, but what makes him think that NVE could make up for it? He a STREAKY STREAKY scorer who doesn't even bother to play defense! How many times do you see the opponent guards run right past him and make Shawn and Raef the ones to have to clean up the mess?

I just think that NVE get so much leanway and never gets the blame from Nellie!

Bookit · 02-26-2003, 01:52 PM

I don't mind NVE when he is the only point guard on the floor!!!

FilthyFinMavs · 02-26-2003, 01:57 PM

<< I seriously believe that Nellie has some kind of man-love for NVE.

Granted Shawn and Raef does tend to have bad nights alot and Nellie never have to think twice to pull them out of the game, but what makes him think that NVE could make up for it? He a STREAKY STREAKY scorer who doesn't even bother to play defense! How many times do you see the opponent guards run right past him and make Shawn and Raef the ones to have to clean up the mess?

I just think that NVE get so much leanway and never gets the blame from Nellie! >>

Nick is a veteran pg who has made an all star apperance and is known for his clutch shots. He averaged 21/6 a game with the Nuggets. Nellie understands what he can do for the Mavs. I don't mind Nick and Nash playing if Nellie feels they have to play at the same time for us to win I just mind how much minutes they play together. I don't mind if Finley is out of the game that they put in Nick for him to be alongside Nash long as they have Bradley or Esch and Lafrentz out there with them.

Yushi · 02-26-2003, 02:18 PM

<< Nick is a veteran pg who has made an all star apperance and is known for his clutch shots. He averaged 21/6 a game with the Nuggets. Nellie understands what he can do for the Mavs. I don't mind Nick and Nash playing if Nellie feels they have to play at the same time for us to win I just mind how much minutes they play together. I don't mind if Finley is out of the game that they put in Nick for him to be alongside Nash long as they have Bradley or Esch and Lafrentz out there with them. >>

Sure Nick is known as a veteran pg and his clutch shots, but he's also known as a ball hog who can win a game for you or he can loose a game for you. To take this team to a next level, you can't rely on Nick that much and hope for the best to happen.

I like NVE only b/c he can give Nash rest, but Nellie is not using NVE as Nash's backup, he simply loves NVE and small ball so much that..whenever Shawn or Raef makes a mistake, he immediately puts NVE in for his beloved small ball. Nellie has zero confidence in Shawn and Raef and his confidence for NVE is way too high.

ames7 · 02-26-2003, 02:35 PM

Nellie's in love with his own gimicks. He thinks it's enormously clever to play SmallBall & no one else will ever figure out what he's doing or find a way to solve it. FFM, you're right, Nick is a veteran, he is a clutch shooter, he's a proven scorer...when he's hot. He's also a streaky player who, if given the chance, will keep flinging up balls that wouldn't fall if his life depended on it. And Nellie gives him the chance.

Don't get me wrong. I really like NVE as a player. I think when he plays like he did (most of) last night, he's an enormous asset. I can live with his cold streaks. Nellie doesn't realize how lucky he is to have such a quality back-up PG. But he's so blinded by his own obsession w/doing things "different" that he doesn't see that it doesn't work. Nick's not the problem, SmallBall is.

Mavs Rule · 02-26-2003, 03:16 PM

<< Nellie's in love with his own gimicks. He thinks it's enormously clever to play SmallBall & no one else will ever figure out what he's doing or find a way to solve it. FFM, you're right, Nick is a veteran, he is a clutch shooter, he's a proven scorer...when he's hot. He's also a streaky player who, if given the chance, will keep flinging up balls that wouldn't fall if his life depended on it. And Nellie gives him the chance.

Don't get me wrong. I really like NVE as a player. I think when he plays like he did (most of) last night, he's an enormous asset. I can live with his cold streaks. Nellie doesn't realize how lucky he is to have such a quality back-up PG. But he's so blinded by his own obsession w/doing things "different" that he doesn't see that it doesn't work. Nick's not the problem, SmallBall is. >>

Good post Ames, I totally agree. Although I would like NVE as a player more if he could D up a little better.

Don't know if if anyone remembers the clip that they showed on an ABC game a couple of weeks ago, but Nellie was talking to Nick about passing the ball more. He was walking on pins and needles talking to him. I think he is intimidated by Nick. He doesn't want to start any kind of chemistry problems on the team so he doesn't say much to him, and if he does it is in a very indirect fashion. If this thinking carries over into playing him down the stretch in small ball because he does not want Nick complaining, I would be extremely dissapointed. What do you think? ... obviously small ball doesn't work, but why would Nellie keep going to it? This could be the reason. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]

Yushi · 02-26-2003, 03:32 PM

<< Don't know if if anyone remembers the clip that they showed on an ABC game a couple of weeks ago, but Nellie was talking to Nick about passing the ball more. >>

I think in the clip, Nellie was asking Nick to be more aggressive. Don't remember Nellie asking Nick to pass the ball more though.

<< He was walking on pins and needles talking to him. I think he is intimidated by Nick. He doesn't want to start any kind of chemistry problems on the team so he doesn't say much to him, and if he does it is in a very indirect fashion. If this thinking carries over into playing him down the stretch in small ball because he does not want Nick complaining, I would be extremely dissapointed. What do you think? ... obviously small ball doesn't work, but why would Nellie keep going to it? This could be the reason >>

Interesting way of looking at it. Maybe Nellie is a little worried of how Nick might react..(As oppose to Raef, I don't think he dares to hold anything against Nellie), he seemed kinda "polite" the way he was talking to Nick in the clip[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

LRB · 02-26-2003, 03:36 PM

If Nellie has any kind of biase or man-love it's for offense at the expense of defense and rebounding. I love NVE and think he is a huge asset to the the Mavs. However substituing a 6'1" for heavy minutes for a 7'6" center or a 6'11" C/F just doesn't make since. Nick is not known for his defense. He is not a good defender and is even worse on bigger shooting guards. Nash quickly wears down as a defender and is not good at all on bigger shooting guards. Neither Nash nor NVE are good rebounders. So why give your centers' minutes to your backup PG?

This is nothing against NVE. I would love to see him and Nash split the PG position. I don't mind seeing NVE as the SG is very limited minutes, but I think we are best going with a big line up of at least 3 of the following Dirk, Raef, Shawn, Esh, Eddie when we do this unless we are going for a final shot and we want all shooters on the court.

Our 5 best offensive players does not give us our best offensive team IMO. Trouble is Nellie has a serious man-love for offensive players.

Mavs Rule · 02-26-2003, 04:38 PM

<< I think in the clip, Nellie was asking Nick to be more aggressive. Don't remember Nellie asking Nick to pass the ball more though. >>

I thought Nellie was asking him to do "what he wanted to do", but if he did not have a good look when he drove, then he could pass the ball more. Then again, I could be wrong. Anyone else know? Sounds like diplomatic language to me, not what you would expect from a coach.

<< Interesting way of looking at it. Maybe Nellie is a little worried of how Nick might react..(As oppose to Raef, I don't think he dares to hold anything against Nellie), he seemed kinda "polite" the way he was talking to Nick in the clip[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] >>

Yes, I wish we could get some discussion on why he plays small ball. I think my intimidation reason is as good as any. Nellie must know that small ball is NOT his best lineup by the results. Therefore, there has to be something going on behind the scenes, and my bet is that is he is worried if NVE doesn't get in at the end of games, that he will not be pleased with his backup role, and will start complaining. Nellie does not want this, therefore smallball.

turbo.mav · 02-26-2003, 04:44 PM

<< Therefore, there has to be something going on behind the scenes, and my bet is that is he is worried if NVE doesn't get in at the end of games, that he will not be pleased with his backup role, and will start complaining. Nellie does not want this, therefore smallball. >>

I have to say thats my best bet. I think he thinks that we have another pg earning 10 million this year and for him to only get 15-20 minutes and none in crunch time is too big of a chemistry risk.

Mavs Rule · 02-26-2003, 04:44 PM

<< Our 5 best offensive players does not give us our best offensive team IMO. Trouble is Nellie has a serious man-love for offensive players. >>

I like this as a possible reason for smallball, but why would Nellie go against results, which someone else kindly posted when they showed how we stink in the fourth quarter of games?

Mavs Rule · 02-26-2003, 04:55 PM

<<

<< Therefore, there has to be something going on behind the scenes, and my bet is that is he is worried if NVE doesn't get in at the end of games, that he will not be pleased with his backup role, and will start complaining. Nellie does not want this, therefore smallball. >>

I have to say thats my best bet. I think he thinks that we have another pg earning 10 million this year and for him to only get 15-20 minutes and none in crunch time is too big of a chemistry risk. >>

Yes, I agree turbo.mav. Is it any wonder NVE was seriously rumored to be offered up at the trading deadline. Maybe they recognize that smallball is weak, but they also realize it is a no-win situation until they deal him this summer. If this is true, this does not bode well for going deep in the playoffs in my estimation, unless at that point Nellie goes with tallball (what they practiced ad nauseum in camp), and figures NVE won't dare cause a stir in the playoffs if Nellie plays him less. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]

FilthyFinMavs · 02-26-2003, 04:57 PM

Of course Nick can win games and lose games for us. Everyone on this team even Dirk and Finley can lose games for us just like Nick can. I'm a bit suprised that people don't like Nick getting minutes in the clutch. He is the only one who even gives Dirk a pass in the post and gives him the ball in the clutch. I don't see Nash doing that as much as Nick has done recently.

Lvubun1 · 02-26-2003, 04:59 PM

That could be it, I doubt it because NVE was the one who requested to come off the bench in the first place. Plus he was glad he wasn't traded, when if he was traded its a 95% chance he would have started on team he was traded to.

TwoDeep3 · 02-26-2003, 05:23 PM

So exactly how many misses in a row must happen before you are absolutely certain Nick is going cold?

And in the 4th quarter, when he has shown a propensity for tossing up game winning shots, how do you justify keeping him on the bench for Raja Bell who is a much worse shooter.

ames7 · 02-26-2003, 05:24 PM

I think the constant talk about NVE being unhappy coming off the bench is hugely overblown. I think he's just so thankful to be on a winning team, he's okay w/it. Besides, it's not like he doesn't get minutes. The thing is, cutting SmallBall doesn't have to mean cutting Nick's minutes. It means cutting Nash's, which was the point of having a good backup in the first place, wasn't it?

I also don't mind that he gets clutch minutes. He's a proven clutch player. If he's hot, he'll come through. I read in the FWST today that he was battling a migraine all day before the game yesterday. & he still managed to play better than basically the rest of the team.

Yushi · 02-26-2003, 05:37 PM

Well so it goes down to the fact that many people believe that Nicks is a proven clutch player so therefor he needs to be on the floor in clutch situations. But the problem is that if you want Nick in the game you are asking for small ball..right?

Maybe Nellie is just as uncertain as others of what he should do - It's just so tempting to play Nick b/c of his clutchness??

Mavs Rule · 02-26-2003, 05:40 PM

Guys, I am just trying to determine logical reasoning for playing smallball. Obviously, we can't see everything that Nellie can see when making this determination. There has to be some logic for something that does not give results.

Let me also say, that I love NVE as a backup for Nash. He is one of the top two or three in the league in this role. He is a clutch player some of the time. But his defense is lacking most of the time. His attitude has been great since he has been here. But Nellie has not pushed him either.

To eliminate smallball in crunchtime, who's time is cut? Nash, Fin, or NVE? If it is NVE, he would not be happy about it.

DrtyFlthyNstYnQuik31 · 02-26-2003, 06:04 PM

FFM...another discussion about nick eh? hehe altleast people are realizing he is a valuable asset. The reason nellie plays him is because nick has the guts to shoot when it matters, he's a cold blooded assassin...Nellie must have known about nick throughout his career because if you seen nick play throughout his career you would probably want him in the game during clutch situations. Do you guys remember when he made the playoffs w. the lakers wit the lineup of eddie jones, cambell, cedric ceballos, vladed divac? w/out kobe n shaq, van exel basically single handedly won a couple games against payton and the sonics and and against the spurs in the second round this guy made a running 3 pointer in the final seconds to send it into overtime, then in overtime again hit the three to win the game...but they did lose to spurs in the second round..my point being nick is not just a bencher and never really got the time to shine because in LA he was in the shadow of kobe/shaq...in denver he had nobody (Mcdyess was always injured) and now he cant really strut his stuff because if he even tried the FANS like some of you would be getting mad cause he's taking some of finley, nash, or dirks shots. I am glad he changed his game to fit the style of the mavs, but you have to realize he's used to shooting about 18 shots a game. And I'm pretty sure he will give the mavs a big help in the playoffs. You think nellie or cuban are stupid? they got us the best record so I think they know what they are doing. And if they did want to get rid of nick sooo much they would have even though brian grant had a large contract, just to get rid of nick and they could have also got a big man that we *Badly* need. I feel that najera can do what brian grant does for way less money. sorry just had to vent...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

all in all im trying to say what i have always been saying, Nellie wants the BIG GUNS in when it counts, and he's making them learn to play together in the regular season, so in the playoffs they wont be surprised, like last year. And yes they have improved...

LRB · 02-26-2003, 06:58 PM

I have no argument with NVE being clutch. NVE as well as Fin, Nash, and Dirk are all clutch, offensively. But defensively? Dirk has made some plays this year. Lately Fin has to. But neither is a defensive star. Nash and NVE are just plain weak defenders in the 4th. I think Nash would be a better defender if he got a good rest going into the clutch.

But if we play 4 guys who are all clutch offensively, but not really that way defensively that leaves us vunerable. IMO we need at least 2 very good defenders on the court in the clutch. We don't get that with our Big 4 offensive clutch guys.

But think about this. We only need 1 guy shooting well at a time to score well. But we need 5 guys playing defense well to get stops. I just think we can't afford to have Nash, NVE, and Fin all on the floor at the same time. I'm not saying don't give NVE clutch minutes, but he does need to have them reduced. Fin and Nash will have to share some with NVE.

The reason I'm leaving Dirk out of the equation of sharing is that he is a PF. The other 3 are guards. I just don't think we can afford to go with 3 guards most of the time in clutch situations. Dirk also plays the most consistent defense of the 4 and he is definitely the best rebounder of the 4.

So I say that Fin, Nash, and NVE should have to earn their clutch minutes. Go primarily with who is playing best that night.

MFFL · 02-26-2003, 07:06 PM

<< The thing is, cutting SmallBall doesn't have to mean cutting Nick's minutes. It means cutting Nash's, which was the point of having a good backup in the first place, wasn't it? >>

How many fewer minutes would you have Steve play? His average of 32 minutes a game is like 30th in the West.

ames7 · 02-26-2003, 07:40 PM

<< How many fewer minutes would you have Steve play? His average of 32 minutes a game is like 30th in the West. >>

It IS? Man. It seems like so much more than that. All you ever from Nellie is "we want to save Steve's energy" this & "don't want him to burn out like last year" that. Since Nick is perfectly capable PG, would it be so horrible to cut from the 32 a little more? This is, of course, based on situation. If Nick is having one of his off-nights & his complete lack of defense is killing us, sit him. What you do not do is stick Steve in there w/him.

Mavs Rule · 02-26-2003, 07:53 PM

<< I have no argument with NVE being clutch. NVE as well as Fin, Nash, and Dirk are all clutch, offensively. But defensively? Dirk has made some plays this year. Lately Fin has to. But neither is a defensive star. Nash and NVE are just plain weak defenders in the 4th. I think Nash would be a better defender if he got a good rest going into the clutch. >>

I like your defensive mindset LRB.

<< But if we play 4 guys who are all clutch offensively, but not really that way defensively that leaves us vunerable. IMO we need at least 2 very good defenders on the court in the clutch. We don't get that with our Big 4 offensive clutch guys.

But think about this. We only need 1 guy shooting well at a time to score well. But we need 5 guys playing defense well to get stops. I just think we can't afford to have Nash, NVE, and Fin all on the floor at the same time. I'm not saying don't give NVE clutch minutes, but he does need to have them reduced. Fin and Nash will have to share some with NVE. >>

IMO, Nash, Fin, and NVE should be on the court together only limited time in the first three quarters, and NEVER in the fourth. I agree totally with playing 2 very good defenders in the clutch.

<< The reason I'm leaving Dirk out of the equation of sharing is that he is a PF. The other 3 are guards. I just don't think we can afford to go with 3 guards most of the time in clutch situations. Dirk also plays the most consistent defense of the 4 and he is definitely the best rebounder of the 4. >>

Yes, Dirk must be playing in crunchtime. He has grown into a good defender, but he must give more effort on the defensive boards. His undefendable offense is almost indisputable.

<< So I say that Fin, Nash, and NVE should have to earn their clutch minutes. Go primarily with who is playing best that night. >>

Very good post LRB. I like the idea of earning the crunchtime between those three. My favorite lineup down the stretch in a big game would be:

5. Bradley/Raef (whichever is playing better that night, if both equally take Bradley)
4. Dirk
3. Najera (gives us a cutter, a rebounder, and a good defensive player)
2. Fin (his athleticism is invalubable late in games)
1. Nash/Van Exel (whoever is penetrating better that night)

If Van Exel is on fire scoring then he is usually able to assist better as well, in which case I would go with him. Trouble is that when Van Exel is running the point, other players don't seem to move as well, and end up just watching. We need them to be more active in order for him to be sucessful against the good teams.

LRB · 02-26-2003, 08:08 PM

<< My favorite lineup down the stretch in a big game would be:

5. Bradley/Raef (whichever is playing better that night, if both equally take Bradley)
4. Dirk
3. Najera (gives us a cutter, a rebounder, and a good defensive player)
2. Fin (his athleticism is invalubable late in games)
1. Nash/Van Exel (whoever is penetrating better that night)
>>

Mavs Rule I think your favorite lineup works really well. It also points out one of the major problems with having Nash,Fin, and NVE on the court together during crunch time.

We really need Eddie during crunch time. He give us energy, hustle, garbage baskets, pesky defense, movement and dive cuts. We also need a shot blocker for defense. If we have Nash, Fin, NVE, and Dirk we can choose either Eddie or a shot blocker. We need both though.

And like I said, only one guy can shoot at a time. Nash, NVE, and Fin are all primarily shooters in the clutch. Yes all 3 can and do pass. But percentage wise they pass much less in the clutch than during the rest of the game. They all become primarily shooters. With Dirk, and 2 of Nash/NVE/Fin we will have at least 3 super good shooters on the court at all times. I really don't see the need for more.

kg_veteran · 02-26-2003, 10:00 PM

<< And in the 4th quarter, when he has shown a propensity for tossing up game winning shots, how do you justify keeping him on the bench for Raja Bell who is a much worse shooter. >>

You justify it because Bell actually gives the team a decent chance to get a stop. They can put plenty of other guys out there to shoot it.

Bayliss · 02-26-2003, 10:13 PM

<< You justify it because Bell actually gives the team a decent chance to get a stop. They can put plenty of other guys out there to shoot it. >>

KG... wrong. You have to have two point guards running the show. You have to have the worst perimeter defender on the team out there in crunchtime. HE CAN SCORE! Albeit at a 40% clip, but that doesn't matter.

Yep. Nellie thinking in a nutshell.

If Nelson truly wants defense (especially in the 4th) then he would play Bradley and Raja a lot more minutes.

Bayliss · 02-26-2003, 10:21 PM

Here's the difference in the 4th quarter that would goes unnoticed by Nellie (or he chooses to ignore it).

Raja Bell will never be known as a scorer. But he understands his role on the court. First and foremost it is to pester defensively, stop penetration by the guard(s), hustle, scrap for loose balls etc. His second motive is to find open people and hit the open shot when there.

If the game starts at 0 on both sides... then the opponent can't win if they can't score. Bell may only score 4 points during the game but most of the time he is only giving up 3 or less. So that is actually a net gain for the Mavs on the scoreboard.

NVE on the other probably will score anywhere from 10-20 points. However he gives up (easily) that amount on the defensive side. So it comes out as a net loss for the Mavs scoring.

So which is better for us on both sides? The guy that scores 15 and gives up 20? Or the guy that scores 4-5 and gives up maybe 3? I'll take the latter everytime. And I'll win most of the time too.

FilthyFinMavs · 02-26-2003, 10:25 PM

<< Here's the difference in the 4th quarter that would goes unnoticed by Nellie (or he chooses to ignore it).

Raja Bell will never be known as a scorer. But he understands his role on the court. First and foremost it is to pester defensively, stop penetration by the guard(s), hustle, scrap for loose balls etc. His second motive is to find open people and hit the open shot when there.

If the game starts at 0 on both sides... then the opponent can't win if they can't score. Bell may only score 4 points during the game but most of the time he is only giving up 3 or less. So that is actually a net gain for the Mavs on the scoreboard.

NVE on the other probably will score anywhere from 10-20 points. However he gives up (easily) that amount on the defensive side. So it comes out as a net loss for the Mavs scoring.

So which is better for us on both sides? The guy that scores 15 and gives up 20? Or the guy that scores 4-5 and gives up maybe 3? I'll take the latter everytime. And I'll win most of the time too. >>

No way in hell has Nick ever given up 20 points to his opponent. If that is the case that would mean when he comes in the game he is sticking the other teams best player which is not true.

Bayliss · 02-26-2003, 10:28 PM

<< No way in hell has Nick ever given up 20 points to his opponent. If that is the case that would mean when he comes in the game he is sticking the other teams best player which is not true. >>

You are justifying it by saying he's playing the worst defender? Please.

And I've seen many times (Troy Hudson anyone?) where NVE have let some just torch him... repeatedly.

kg_veteran · 02-26-2003, 10:32 PM

I would be fine with the Underdog Ball lineup if it worked. Since it doesn't, though, it only makes sense that Nelson should shelve the thing once and for all. Somehow, though, I think it will continue to rear its ugly head for now and for the foreseeable future. Damned Underdog Ball...

DEAD4SURE · 02-26-2003, 10:40 PM

hi to all, I agree w/u

FilthyFinMavs · 02-26-2003, 10:46 PM

<<

<< No way in hell has Nick ever given up 20 points to his opponent. If that is the case that would mean when he comes in the game he is sticking the other teams best player which is not true. >>

You are justifying it by saying he's playing the worst defender? Please.

And I've seen many times (Troy Hudson anyone?) where NVE have let some just torch him... repeatedly. >>

Yes Troy Hudson has killed Nash and NVE both. But I have never seen him light 1 of those up for 20. I think you exaggerated a bit and there is no need to make a point by exaggerating it.

LRB · 02-26-2003, 10:53 PM

<< I would be fine with the Underdog Ball lineup if it worked. Since it doesn't, though, it only makes sense that Nelson should shelve the thing once and for all. Somehow, though, I think it will continue to rear its ugly head for now and for the foreseeable future. Damned Underdog Ball... >>

KG I gotta disagree with you a little here. The real problem with Underdog Ball is that it does work sometimes, just not very often. If it didn't work ever, Nellie could probably get it out of his system. Underdog ball is based on an all offensive approach to outscoring you opponent. It give very little regard to defense and rebounding and concentrates almost 100% on scoring. Occcasionally we will be really hot and our opponents won't be and this will work. Many times more than working it will not work. But those few times that it does work give Nellie the hope he needs to continue with it. For us it would really be better if it never worked at all. Then maybe Nellie could get it out of his system and get on with the business on winnning championships.

ames7 · 02-26-2003, 11:01 PM

SmallBall is a wonderful concept. It's exactly what Nellie wants. It solves the problem about NVE being upset about not getting enough minutes & being a backup instead of a starter. It fits in perfectly w/his all-offense-all-the-time game plan. It's different. Why have 2 forwards when you can have 3 guards? Or 4 guards! Why not? More the merrier. Who says there can only be one PG on the court at once? How boring is that? If we win a championship like that, how is that different than every other championship everyone else has already won?

SmallBall is a wonderful concept. That's nice. It doesn't work. Why do we have to win a championship differently? B/c "the old-fashioned way" is just not difficult enough.

Yushi · 02-26-2003, 11:02 PM

<< The real problem with Underdog Ball is that it does work sometimes >>

But the biggest problem is that whenever underdog ball does work, it's always against the weak teams. It'll never work against teams like the kings or lakers. I don't know how long it will take for Nellie to realize this.