Mavs draft Shane Larkin @ 18

[GhostOfAdamMorrison]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

We missed out on Schroeder, Noguiera, Adetokoubo, Muhammad, and Olynyk. Which one of those guys is going to be better than Larkin?

It's rookie year, but Larkin is out-performing almost all of them.

LOL...no sense even trying to talk to you if you honestly believe that.

Giannis has a 14.3 PER right now. Larkin 7.5. Not to mention the obvious talent difference just watching them both (same with Schroeder).

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

We missed out on Schroeder, Noguiera, Adetokoubo, Muhammad, and Olynyk. Which one of those guys is going to be better than Larkin?

It's rookie year, but Larkin is out-performing almost all of them. Only guy in that list that may be better is Giannis Antetokounmpo, but he's maybe 3-4 years out and by then, Dirk will be retired and we'll be a much different team.

Olynyk has outperformed him also, but that wouldn't have been a good pick for the Mavs. Giannis might be ready before that. He lit the Mavs up pretty well. The Bucks were expecting to D league him, but have decided to put him in their regular rotation. It might be the Bucks injury riddled rotation, but still.

I'm just saying, you can't use number 18 as an excuse when you could have picked earlier.

[EricaLubarsky]

I'd love to discuss, but not with someone who is condescending like that.

I said "almost" and also edited to reflect that Giannis is performing better (although PER is terrible to compare forwards and guards, because PER over-emphasizes rebounding)

I was also talking about who was available between 13 and 18. I wasn't talking about how we drafted, but in the impact of trading down. I'd love to also have a discussion about how well we draft again, but also not with someone whose answer to everything is to say that it's not worth talking to people that aren't as smart as you.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

Olynyk has outperformed him also, but that wouldn't have been a good pick for the Mavs. Giannis might be ready before that. He lit the Mavs up pretty well. The Bucks were expecting to D league him, but have decided to put him in their regular rotation. It might be the Bucks injury riddled rotation, but still.

I'm just saying, you can't use number 18 as an excuse when you could have picked earlier.

You absolutely can use the excuse of picking 18th, when there wouldn't be anyone between 13 and 18 that would have made a difference either. Olynyk is a stiff that will quickly find himself out of the roster when he isn't inflating his stats on a rebuilding Celtics team (11-14 so far). Giannis is in a similar boat in Milwaukee (5-19). Giannis may eventually be good, but may just take too long.

And Antoine Walker had a rookie season with a PER of 15.5 compared to Steve Nash's 10.8, but no one would say that the Celtics drafted better because Walker had a better rookie season. I'm not saying that Larkin is Steve Nash, but Larkin is more prepared to have a solid sophomore season than almost anyone else available at 13 or 18.

[LSMF]

I honestly don't think Carlislie would be the right coach for Giannis.

[GhostOfAdamMorrison]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I'd love to discuss, but not with someone who is condescending like that.

I said "almost" and also edited to reflect that Giannis is performing better (although PER is terrible to compare forwards and guards, because PER over-emphasizes rebounding)

I was also talking about who was available between 13 and 18. I wasn't talking about how we drafted, but in the impact of trading down. I'd love to also have a discussion about how well we draft again, but also not with someone whose answer to everything is to say that it's not worth talking to people that aren't as smart as you.

1. PER doesn't over-emphasize rebounding. I don't know where you came up with that idea. CP3 is third in the NBA in PER. Isaiah Thomas is 13th. Moreover, Giannis is only averaging 3.9 RPG.

2. Larkin obviously isn't as talented as Giannis. That's clear to anyone who has watched them both play. You'd be hard pressed to find a single GM who thinks Larkin has a higher ceiling than Giannis (or Schroeder, for that matter).

The fact is, you tend to overrate Mavs players once they put on a Mavs jersey. You, with a straight face, said Monta Ellis could average a double-double during pre-season.

Ager, DoJo, Cunnigham, Crowder, James, Larkin...the Mavs drafting has undeniably been very poor. Larkin is a small PG with a short wingspan and he isn't a great passer. He'll never be more than a 3rd PG on a good team.

[sefant77]

And Sullinger showing several teams the middlefinger, he dropped a lot in the 2012. We could have picked him too. Had #17 but did the trade with the Cavs for #24 #32 #43: Cunningham, Sarge, Crowder.

Damn

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by GhostOfAdamMorrison

1. PER doesn't over-emphasize rebounding. I don't know where you came up with that idea. CP3 is third in the NBA in PER. Isaiah Thomas is 13th. Moreover, Giannis is only averaging 3.9 RPG.

Three things:
1.) Dirk currently ranks behind Lamar Aldridge in PER almost solely on account of the difference in their rebounding numbers, so I'm a little surprised to see you take that position.

2.) it could easily be claimed that CP and Thomas are still under-rated by PER in spite of their high rankings.

3.) PER isn't a per-game stat (as I'm sure you know), and in fact Giannis rebounding percentage is almost as high as Marion's, so that aspect of his production is definitely influencing his rating.

That aside, it's simply too early to pass judgement on the Larkin pick, or determine what Dallas gave up (outside of ceiling and potential) by trading down from 13. I doubt you'd find a single GM who would claim otherwise this early in the game.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by GhostOfAdamMorrison

The fact is, you tend to overrate Mavs players once they put on a Mavs jersey.

Oh really?

[sefant77]

lol at Giannis block vs Durant

This draft gonna bite us in the ass big time

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by sefant77

lol at Giannis block vs Durant

This draft gonna bite us in the ass big time

Giannis has been absurdly up and down. However, he has been better than expected. That's the plus side of being able to get as many minutes as you want on the worst team in the league.

[alby]

Giannis's downs > any of Shane's ups

[GermanStandard]

Originally Posted by alby

Giannis's downs > any of Shane's ups

Seriously the Mavs Drafts are pretty much same as the Cowboys ones

JUST PLAIN BAD!

I dont even remember when we drafted an impact player let alone a Starter.

I think we have the worst draft history of all teams.

Just look at the 2000's

(2013) 1st - 18 - Shane Larkin - Miami -> so far bust
2nd - 43 - Ricki Ledo - Provedence -> so far bust

(2012) 1st – 17 – Tyler Zeller – UNC (Draft rights traded to Cleveland Cavaliers) -> bench player but not for us
(2012) 2nd – 55 – Darius Johnson-Odom – Marquette (Draft rights traded to LA Lakers) -> bust

(2011) 1st – 26 – Jordan Hamilton – University of Texas at Austin -> bench player but not for us
(2011) 2nd – 57 – Targuy Ngombo – Congo -> bust

(2010) 2nd – 50 – Solomon Alabi – Florida State University -> bust

(2009) 1st – 24 – Byron Mullens – Ohio State University -> Bench Player but not for us
(2009) 2nd – 56 – Ahmad Nivins – Saint Joseph’s University -> bust

(2008) 2nd – 51 – Shan Foster – Vanderbilt University -> bust

(2007) 2nd – 34 – Nick Fazekas – University of Nevada, Reno -> bust
(2007) 2nd – 50 – Renaldas Seibutis – Lithuania -> bust
(2007) 2nd – 60 – Milovan Rakovic – Serbia -> bust

(2006) 1st – 28 – Maurice Ager – Michigan State University -> bust
(2006) 2nd – 58 – J.R. Pinnock – George Washington University -> bust

(2005) None

(2004) 2nd – 50 – Vassilis Spanoulis – Greece -> bust

(2003) 1st – 29 – Josh Howard – Wake Forest University -> Starter and Allstar
(2003) 2nd – 57 – Xue Yuyang – China -> bust

(2002) 2nd – 55 – Mladen Sekularac – Yugoslavia -> bust

(2001) 2nd – 43 – Kyle Hill – Eastern Illinois University -> bust
(2001) 2nd – 53 – Kenny Satterfield – University of Cincinnati -> bust

(2000) 1st – 12 – Etan Thomas – Syracuse University -> end of the bench
(2000) 2nd – 31 – Dan Langhi – Vanderbilt University -> bust
(2000) 2nd – 58 – Pete Mickeal – University of Cincinnati -> bust



= Summary 24 Draft Picks since 2000 and we had One Starter and Allstar.
Rest were no names most didnt even play a minute in the NBA.

The three bench players we drafted recently Zeller, Hamilton, Mullens were traded away


WAY TO GO DONNIE and MARC

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by alby

Giannis's downs > any of Shane's ups

What a bizarre claim.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by GermanStandard

Seriously the Mavs Drafts are pretty much same as the Cowboys ones

JUST PLAIN BAD!

I dont even remember when we drafted an impact player let alone a Starter.

I think we have the worst draft history of all teams.

Just look at the 2000's

(2013) 1st - 18 - Shane Larkin - Miami -> so far bust
2nd - 43 - Ricki Ledo - Provedence -> so far bust

(2012) 1st – 17 – Tyler Zeller – UNC (Draft rights traded to Cleveland Cavaliers) -> bench player but not for us
(2012) 2nd – 55 – Darius Johnson-Odom – Marquette (Draft rights traded to LA Lakers) -> bust

(2011) 1st – 26 – Jordan Hamilton – University of Texas at Austin -> bench player but not for us
(2011) 2nd – 57 – Targuy Ngombo – Congo -> bust

(2010) 2nd – 50 – Solomon Alabi – Florida State University -> bust

(2009) 1st – 24 – Byron Mullens – Ohio State University -> Bench Player but not for us
(2009) 2nd – 56 – Ahmad Nivins – Saint Joseph’s University -> bust

(2008) 2nd – 51 – Shan Foster – Vanderbilt University -> bust

(2007) 2nd – 34 – Nick Fazekas – University of Nevada, Reno -> bust
(2007) 2nd – 50 – Renaldas Seibutis – Lithuania -> bust
(2007) 2nd – 60 – Milovan Rakovic – Serbia -> bust

(2006) 1st – 28 – Maurice Ager – Michigan State University -> bust
(2006) 2nd – 58 – J.R. Pinnock – George Washington University -> bust

(2005) None

(2004) 2nd – 50 – Vassilis Spanoulis – Greece -> bust

(2003) 1st – 29 – Josh Howard – Wake Forest University -> Starter and Allstar
(2003) 2nd – 57 – Xue Yuyang – China -> bust

(2002) 2nd – 55 – Mladen Sekularac – Yugoslavia -> bust

(2001) 2nd – 43 – Kyle Hill – Eastern Illinois University -> bust
(2001) 2nd – 53 – Kenny Satterfield – University of Cincinnati -> bust

(2000) 1st – 12 – Etan Thomas – Syracuse University -> end of the bench
(2000) 2nd – 31 – Dan Langhi – Vanderbilt University -> bust
(2000) 2nd – 58 – Pete Mickeal – University of Cincinnati -> bust



= Summary 24 Draft Picks since 2000 and we had One Starter and Allstar.
Rest were no names most didnt even play a minute in the NBA.

The three bench players we drafted recently Zeller, Hamilton, Mullens were traded away


WAY TO GO DONNIE and MARC

You need to reevaluate your definition of a bust. A 2nd round pick can never be a bust

[spreedom]

Christ, it's been 30 games. Let's tap the breaks a bit on whether Larkin was a good pick or not.

[GermanStandard]

Originally Posted by spreedom

Christ, it's been 30 games. Let's tap the breaks a bit on whether Larkin was a good pick or not.

True but i dont see much upside.

Offtopic: Why was Cadbane banned with his 2nd account "GhostofAdamMorrison"? Did i miss sth.?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by GermanStandard

Seriously the Mavs Drafts are pretty much same as the Cowboys ones

JUST PLAIN BAD!

I dont even remember when we drafted an impact player let alone a Starter.

I think we have the worst draft history of all teams.

Just look at the 2000's

(2013) 1st - 18 - Shane Larkin - Miami -> so far bust
2nd - 43 - Ricki Ledo - Provedence -> so far bust

(2012) 1st – 17 – Tyler Zeller – UNC (Draft rights traded to Cleveland Cavaliers) -> bench player but not for us
(2012) 2nd – 55 – Darius Johnson-Odom – Marquette (Draft rights traded to LA Lakers) -> bust

blah

blah

friggin'-blahbitty-blah-blah

Neat copy/paste job off of Wiki, but I don't see most of the actual players that this team drafted - just the players that were taken with our initial picks... Who cares about Tyler Zeller rotting on someone else's bench when Jae Crowder is looking like a legit NBA player right now?

[sefant77]

Too bad the draft was before the FA...

Im pretty confident that Harris gonna stick longterm with the Mavs on a solid contract (after bouncing around in the league the past years he knows what he has here) and with Ellis/Jose/Harris there is just no need for Larkin anymore for the next 2-3 years..and no playing time.

Could have drafted a different position too (they wanted a PG the entire time: MCW/Burke with trading up or Larkin).

[GermanStandard]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Too bad the draft was before the FA...

Im pretty confident that Harris gonna stick longterm with the Mavs on a solid contract (after bouncing around in the league the past years he knows what he has here) and with Ellis/Jose/Harris there is just no need for Larkin anymore for the next 2-3 years..and no playing time.

Could have drafted a different position too (they wanted a PG the entire time: MCW/Burke with trading up or Larkin).

I bet they wouldnt take Larkin again if they knew they gonna get Harris.

I also dont see any playing time for Larkin and so far even Mekel hasnt been worse.

I would trade him and try and get a 2nd Rounder or sth. for him.

We should have gotten a Big in the Draft...

Dieng, Plumlee, Gobert etc. were still on board.

Not saying those would be great players but they would atleast give us some more size and rebounding/shot blocking.

[Budapest Maverick]

No, we should have drafted Giannis, plain and simple. I just can't believe you leave somebody like that (huge upside) on the board in a year where you can't really draft an immediate impact player anyway.

[Murphy3]

The Mavs haven't had the best draft position because of on court success.. However, they've also been really bad at adding depth or true impact players through the draft. I think most would agree with this..

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

No, we should have drafted Giannis, plain and simple. I just can't believe you leave somebody like that (huge upside) on the board in a year where you can't really draft an immediate impact player anyway.

Giannis was very hit or miss. And he is still more upside than actual production. He'd be playing behind Marion/VC and battling for minutes against Crowder and Ellington. And lately, he's been pretty terrible. Too hard to know how good a player is anyway playing for the worst team in the league. His passing and defensive potential are definitely there...and I'd happily take him over Larkin. But that missed pick isn't a no-brainer by any means.

[Melonhead]

I like Larkin's spark, and the guy is always hustling. Knows who to give the ball to (Dirk). Really no spot for him to get on the floor now though.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Larkin is Harris insurance which actually is pretty important to have. Harris has been unable to stay healthy for much if his career.

[EricaLubarsky]

Larkin will be fine. He's got a good motor and good skill. I could easily see the Mavs trading Calderon, moving Harris up to starter and making Larkin the backup.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Larkin will be fine. He's got a good motor and good skill. I could easily see the Mavs trading Calderon, moving Harris up to starter and making Larkin the backup.

I'm inclined to agree with this. Larkin seems like a hard-worker and smart basketball player. Yes, he's small (5'11.5-6'0?) but I think if he can improve his jumper this summer, work on that teardrop floater, and learn to draw fouls he can play a much bigger role on this team. He still has time to learn from the veteran guards (Calderon, Monta, Devin Harris) right now so he has time to develop. Yeah, there's not much playing time right now but I see no reason why he can't become a much more important part of this team next season. We've already seen how good he can be in spurts, hopefully he works extremely hard this summer and comes back as a better player next season.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Giannis was very hit or miss. And he is still more upside than actual production. He'd be playing behind Marion/VC and battling for minutes against Crowder and Ellington. And lately, he's been pretty terrible. Too hard to know how good a player is anyway playing for the worst team in the league. His passing and defensive potential are definitely there...and I'd happily take him over Larkin. But that missed pick isn't a no-brainer by any means.

Upside or perception is huge though. I'd bet you could've gotten Afflalo or someone similar for Giannis at the deadline practically straight up.

Also, the league is flooded with good point guards. And every year 4 or 5 Larkins and Trey Burkes enter the league. And Larkin can only realistically ever guard one player on the court: a smallish guard.

I'm a huge proponent of BPA in ANY sport. If say Sullinger or Terrence Jones or Olynik were highest rated on Mavs board these last couple drafts they should've taken them, for example even if they played the same position as Dirk. Ive heard mention of Mavs Big Board leak and that they had MCW and Burke followed by Larkin. Was this an overall board or just PG?

Still frustrates me to no end that if that Marcus Smart Idiot didnt stay in school we probably have MCW. And in turn would've had more FA money to spend on what went to Calderon...

[ffballer]

shane s got lot of potential,but on this roster hes not gonna be able to show his talent,at least this year, he lacks of confidence when having dirk or vince on his side,is like he rather passes the ball to one of them instead of trying to get his own bucket, when he went to the dleague, he dropped like 21 points and 10 assits or sth like that so he has potential but sadly theres no room for so many pgs

ps id ve taken hardaway jr(25th pick) all day long before shane

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by mac222b

Upside or perception is huge though. I'd bet you could've gotten Afflalo or someone similar for Giannis at the deadline practically straight up.

Also, the league is flooded with good point guards. And every year 4 or 5 Larkins and Trey Burkes enter the league. And Larkin can only realistically ever guard one player on the court: a smallish guard.

I'm a huge proponent of BPA in ANY sport. If say Sullinger or Terrence Jones or Olynik were highest rated on Mavs board these last couple drafts they should've taken them, for example even if they played the same position as Dirk. Ive heard mention of Mavs Big Board leak and that they had MCW and Burke followed by Larkin. Was this an overall board or just PG?

Still frustrates me to no end that if that Marcus Smart Idiot didnt stay in school we probably have MCW. And in turn would've had more FA money to spend on what went to Calderon...

All valid points. I'm in no way defending the Mavs drafting abilities, but hindsight is generally 20/20. They pretty much just went for need, and since they were so distraught over the pg position least season, well....

And yeah, not landing MCW was a big draft blow. It really did almost happen.

[He15man]

I cant remember if it was here or somewhere else but i wanted Sullinger coming out and people laughed at me.

I also wanted Tim Hardaway Jr but we took Shane Larkin....

We also got rid of Nick Calathes and kept Gal Mekel.

Horrible draft decisions

[soundchaser]

Shane was a waste of a draft pick the minute we made the pick. But at least he doesn't have to worry about this happening to him and that is his problem.

[ffballer]

he played last night on the legends, 21 points going 4/4 from behind the arc and 11 assists, hes playing again tonight

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by ffballer

he played last night on the legends, 21 points going 4/4 from behind the arc and 11 assists, hes playing again tonight

Good info. Thanks!
Glad to hear to he's getting shooting reps in game action and shooting it well from distance

[GermanStandard]

Well so far Larkin was a waste of a pick.

We know Carlisle gives Rookies a hard time but nonetheless...

Larkin this Season: GP 46: 2,8 PPG, 1,5 APG, 0,9 RPG, 0,8 TO

Meanwhile i really have a hard time that we passed up Gorgui Dieng.

We already were quite deep at PG and the Return of Harris was obvious. It made no sense picking up Larkin AND Mekel aswell.

We needed Big Men and Rim Protectors.

Gorgui Dieng: GP: 55 4,1 PPG, 4,4 RPG, 0,7 BPG

More interesting are his stats since he actually receives playing time.

Over his last 10 Games he is averaging 11 PPG and 10 RPG.

Over the Month of March and April he is averaging 10 PPG and almost 10 RPG.

He had a 20/20 Game as a Rookie and puts up 15+ Boards on a nightly basis.

Dude has the ability to become a Monster.

I dont see that in Larkin..

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by GermanStandard

Well so far Larkin was a waste of a pick.

Larkin this Season: GP 46: 2,8 PPG, 1,5 APG, 0,9 RPG, 0,8 TO

Per 48 stats - rookie year
Shane Larkin - 12.6pts, 7.0ast, 4.2reb, 2.6 stl

Considering he's had a jittery season devastated by injury and has only played a handful of games, I'm pretty pleased by him. Dirk shot only 40% from the field and 20% from three his rookie year and Dirk got significantly more time on the floor.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by GermanStandard

We know Carlisle gives Rookies a hard time but nonetheless...

The bit that will never die... Jae Crowder and Bernard James both STARTED games in their rookie season.

Looks like the trick to getting rookie minutes with Carlisle is that you have to be healthy, and you know, not suck.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Larkin is nice insurance in case Harris goes down, but it's pretty hard not to be upset with how well Dieng looks lately.

[EricaLubarsky]

Dieng is solid and I was strongly advocating that we draft him prior to last year's draft. Still, we went into the draft without a single guard on the roster long-term. Larkin will be solid in a year or two and Dieng will never be a star or even average offensive force.

Dieng'll be a hard-rebounding journeyman like Dalembert or Kanter. I imagine he'll be in the league for the next 5-10+ years, but will never be a star, because his ceiling is Serge Ibaka without the elite shot blocking.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Dieng'll be a hard-rebounding journeyman like Dalembert or Kanter. I imagine he'll be in the league for the next 5-10+ years, but will never be a star, because his ceiling is Serge Ibaka without the elite shot blocking.

Maybe, but it seems like Dieng is certainly of starter quality. I'm not yet convinced that Larkin is even a legit backup. He looked good in some games and poor in others. But I'll hold my judgement until he gets consistent minutes.